# Montana & drunk driving - WTF?!?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 11, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097 "2003-06-11T13:44:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Marvel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marvel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvel)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/1 "2003-06-11T13:44:30Z")
I caught the tail-end of a news report last night (June 10th, ABC World News Tonight) and, from what I gathered, openly drinking a beer while driving is either legal or its not being punished like it ought to be in Montana. Some people, including a congresswoman, were interviewed, all of whom lost someone or know of someone who was killed by a drunk driver in their state. What shocked the hell out of me was the camera crew and reporter were in a moving vehicle with a woman who was driving WHILE DRINKING STRAIGHT FROM A BEER BOTTLE!!! When the reporter asked her what she’d do if this were outlawed, she flippantly replied “I guess become an outlaw.” WTF?!?!?! First of all, what exactly is the legal status of drinking and driving in Montana? Is it legal or is it illegal but the penalties are a slap on the wrist? Second of all, what is he rationale behind this behavior? You have to understand, I live in Cleveland, Ohio - one of our suburbs recently made it a no-no to talk on one’s cell phone while driving, which I support. Doesn’t matter to me if your eatting or chatting or spanking your kids, if you can’t keep both hands on the wheel and your attention on the road, pull the hell over! So you can imagine how shocked I am by this Montana story. Again I ask, WTF?!?! Patty ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/2 "2003-06-11T14:06:29Z")
As a state, Montana has not outlawed drinking an alcohol while driving. In some cities, such as Billings, it is illegal, but that is a city ordinance and not a state law. Of course, it is illegal to drive drunk. They just make a distinction between drunk driving and drinking while driving (which can be done without being above .1) You can read more [here](http://www.montanaforum.com/rednews/2003/02/21/build/safety/dui-oped.php?nnn=3) ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/3 "2003-06-11T14:35:51Z")
To understand this, you need to make the distinction between driving while **drunk** and driving while **drinking**. They are not the same. The overwhelming majority of folks can drink one or two beers and still have less than the legal limit of alcohol in their bloodstream. Legally, their driving is not yet impaired. Some studies show slight improvement in some folks’ driving after one drink (due to reduction in tenseness). Plenty of people drive after having a drink or two, not yet having reached the legal limit of blood alcohol. Compared to this, having that drink or two while driving has less effect on one’s performance (for a while, at least), in that the booze hasn’t worked its way into the bloodstream yet. Practically speaking, if it’s legal to drive **after** having had a drink, there’s no reason for it to be illegal to drive **while** having that drink. The potential to abuse laws allowing drinking while driving is obvious, and most states have chosen to prohibit alcohol consumption while driving, with some even prohibiting open alcohol containers (including cups) in the cab. This is not because drinking while driving per se is a problem in every case, but because it has some correlation with alcohol abuse, coupled with issues of public opinion (witness the sentiment in the OP) and ease of enforceability. The next step would be prohibition of driving after **any** amount of drinking. We’ll likely never see this in the U.S., but it’s the norm in Europe and Asia. Driving while drunk, or significantly impaired from drinking, is a whole different issue on which all agree–it cannot be allowed. The distraction factor is no different from drinking a coffee or soda, and while any distraction is a potential problem, there’s really no way we’re going to enforceable laws prohibiting any eating or drinking while driving. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/4 "2003-06-11T15:52:00Z")
Slight hijack – I’ve been told that Montana doesn’t (or at least at one time didn’t) have any state-wide speed limit enforcement on the highways. According to my information (my sister), the open road areas are so lightly populated, and the state troopers so few, that if there is a limit posted it’s pretty well ignored anyway. During the gasoline shortages, when the feds imposed a national 55 MPH limit, Montana (again according to my sister) dutifully put up the signs, but if you were stopped by one of the few enforcers, the penalty was not considered a moving violation! It was a “failure to conserve fuel” violation, punishable by some minimal fine. Obviously, there’s a big practical difference between driving on miles and miles of straight open road with little or no traffic and having to maneuver the streets of downtown or suburban Cleveland, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/5 "2003-06-11T16:53:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MLS \* > \*\*Slight hijack – I’ve been told that Montana doesn’t (or at least at one time didn’t) have any state-wide speed limit enforcement on the highways. \*\* See [http://www.mdt.state.mt.us/speed\_limit/](http://www.mdt.state.mt.us/speed_limit/) for posted speed limits as of May 1999. The National Motorists Association [issued a report](http://www.hwysafety.com/hwy_montana_2001.htm) in 2001 looking at Montana’s speed limits / no speed limits during the preceeding seven years. The results are fascinating: > [@](#): > > The study shows the safest period on Montana’s Interstate highways was when there were no daytime speed limits or enforceable speed laws. > > The doubling of fatal accidents occurred after Montana implemented its new safety program; complete with federal funding, artificially low speed limits and full enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/6 "2003-06-11T17:07:43Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Gary T \* > \*\* > The next step would be prohibition of driving after **any** amount of drinking. We’ll likely never see this in the U.S., but it’s the norm in Europe and Asia._\* Not true. Limits in most of Europe are between 0.05 and 0.08. These are not radically different from the US limits, AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![zwede](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ac91a4/32.png) [@zwede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwede)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/7 "2003-06-11T17:44:58Z")
Sweden is 0.02. They wanted 0.00, but the breathalyzer manufacturers said they couldn’t make the machines that accurate (risk of false positives). In a way zero tolerance (or close to it) makes some sense. With an arbitrary limit like 0.08 it’s easy to have people at parties drink their 2 drinks or whatever, and then fall into the “just one more” trap. The first thing to get impaired is judgement… ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/8 "2003-06-11T17:49:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary T \* > **The overwhelming majority of folks can drink one or two beers and still have less than the legal limit of alcohol in their bloodstream.** Do you have a credible cite for this? I’ve heard this asserted before, but all of the comprehensive research I’ve seen is pretty emphatic that it’s totally false. Anecdotally, I feel the effects of a single drink, particularly if I haven’t eaten recently, and I’m much bigger than the average person. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/9 "2003-06-11T17:53:05Z")
When I lived there I found that Montanans don’t take to restrictive rules well but that’s a GD topic. IIRC Texas had a similar situation with no open container law and it not being specifically illegal to drink while at the wheel but don’t know if that is still the case. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/10 "2003-06-11T18:03:21Z")
I recall many a time that I would have a beer on the way home from the golf course. It was neither illegal nor immoral in my view. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/11 "2003-06-11T18:42:48Z")
**Cerowyn** : Here’s a [page](http://www.healthed.msu.edu/snc/bac.htm) from a health education service at Michigan State University. According to it, the average man would reach .015 BAC from one drink in one hour, while the average woman would have .029. Two drinks in an hour would put a man at .046, and a woman at .077. So one drink in an hour would be fine for the average person. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/12 "2003-06-11T19:03:00Z")
Futile Gesture–mea culpa, due to haste. I should have said “…in _parts_ of Europe and Asia.” Furthermore, while I recall reading of very harsh penalties (permanent loss of driving license, prison time, etc.) for driving in some Asian countries with even a trace of alcohol in the system, apparently with respect to Europe I was thinking of what I’ve read of attitudes in some countries, where driving after any drinking at all is “not done,” or at least heavily frowned upon. Cerowyn–I don’t know what you’ve been reading, but I put “blood alcohol level one drink two drinks” into Google and found lots of stuff like these: From here: [http://www.mhcs.health.nsw.gov.au/health-public-affairs/mhcs/publications/5375.html](http://www.mhcs.health.nsw.gov.au/health-public-affairs/mhcs/publications/5375.html) “Even one drink can raise BAL to 0.02. To stay under the 0.05 limit, men should drink no more than two standard drinks in one hour…” And from here: [http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:P7y-XRFNqdcJ:www.aaanwohio.com/safety/3361.htm+blood+alcohol+level+one+drink+two+drinks&hl=en&ie=UTF-8](http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:P7y-XRFNqdcJ:www.aaanwohio.com/safety/3361.htm+blood+alcohol+level+one+drink+two+drinks&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) “At two drinks per hour, the drinker’s blood alcohol level would be .047 percent at the end of the first hour.” Obviously these are assuming starting from a point of sobriety, as was I. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/13 "2003-06-11T19:07:30Z")
Keep in mind that in the U.S., legal limits are .08 or .10. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/14 "2003-06-11T19:24:13Z")
Duck, that is fascinating! I wonder, though, if the principle would also apply to more congested roads such as the east-coast interstates, turnpikes and parkways. I also wonder if some of the younger drivers on roads with speed limits drive faster than the signs say to do just because they are at that stage of life where they’re looking for a rule to break. Just as young people in homes where a glass of wine or beer with dinner is no big deal may be less likely to engage in binge drinking when they are first away from home than those who need to taste the forbidden fruit and flaunt rules to show how “grown up” they are. (No cite for that, just a “wonder if…”) ---
**Author:** ![occ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8c91f0/32.png) [@occ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/occ)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/15 "2003-06-11T20:35:21Z")
Quick aside: one of the reasons that say, Sweden has “zero tolerance” for drinking and driving is that in many European countries, public transportation is the norm. In the US, the majority of people drive to their local bar or tavern, unless they live in a largeish city. Now, back to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/16 "2003-06-11T20:53:41Z")
GaryT: [[Driving while drunk, or significantly impaired from drinking, is a whole different issue on which all agree–it cannot be allowed.]] But in the big picture, in many parts of the US it basically _is_ allowed. One may be stopped, fined, even jailed for DWI. Numerous times, even. But eventually, these people almost always get their vehicles and their licenses back. A member of my family has had numerous convictions, spent several stints in prison (twice for over a year) and even attacked police officers who stopped him when he was driving drunk. He’s been arrested in at least four states. Then he gets out, they help him get resettled, get counseling, and get another job. Then he does it again. He’s been sober for the last two years, knock on wood. Oh, and btw, he lives in Montana (thought had several of his convictions in California). ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/17 "2003-06-11T21:01:55Z")
GaryT: [[Driving while drunk, or significantly impaired from drinking, is a whole different issue on which all agree–it cannot be allowed.]] But in the big picture, in many parts of the US it basically _is_ allowed. One may be stopped, fined, even jailed for DWI. Numerous times, even. But eventually, these people almost always get their vehicles and their licenses back. A member of my family has had numerous convictions, spent several stints in prison (twice for over a year) and even attacked police officers who stopped him when he was driving drunk. He’s been arrested in at least four states. Then he gets out, they help him get resettled, get counseling, and get another job. Then he does it again. He’s been sober for the last two years, knock on wood. Oh, and btw, he lives in Montana (thought had several of his convictions in California). ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/18 "2003-06-11T21:18:16Z")
You know, my quoting abilities seem to be pretty much non-existant lately. I could have sworn I’d included only the final sentence in that paragraph. Obviously, it’s absurd to suggest that a single drink would people over the limit. :o Sorry about that. What I **meant** to ask you about were the studies that you mentioned that found that people were better drivers after a drink. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/19 "2003-06-11T21:19:50Z")
**Padeye** …Yes, not too long ago you could drink while driving in Texas. Then you couldn’t drink while driving, but could drink in the car while somebody else was driving. Now no open containers at all in the car. I was in the New Orleans area a while back and there were daiquiri shacks there…I can’t see how they expect you to buy a daiquiri and not drink it in the car…it’s not like a drive-up window at a liquor store…AFAIK these were ready to consume, but I didn’t stop (not being a big rum drinker). **CurtC** I agree…I almost responded to this thread a couple of hours ago with the observation that I could just about guarantee it wouldn’t be long until somebody would chime in that even .000001% alcohol while driving was too much. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097/20 "2003-06-12T02:58:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duke of Rat \* > \*\*\*\*Padeye\*\*I was in the New Orleans area a while back and there were daiquiri shacks there…I can’t see how they expect you to buy a daiquiri and not drink it in the car…it’s not like a drive-up window at a liquor store…AFAIK these were ready to consume > \*\* The answer is, they are sold in the same type of cup a milk shake is sold in. Until you stick the straw through the hole in the top of the cap, it’s not legally considered an open container. (I was in Nu O’leans during Memorial Day andb checked this out) The cups are completely non-descript (plain white styrofoam, like a large coffee cup. No decal or printing on it what so ever.) The whole thing still seems kind of strange. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-drunk-driving-wtf/181097.md?page=2)