# Montana Rancher Illegally Created Giant Hybrid Sheep: Should This Be a Crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 15, 2024, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886 "2024-03-15T18:40:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/1 "2024-03-15T18:40:09Z")
> **[Montana rancher illegally created giant hybrid sheep to sell for thousands](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/03/14/giant-sheep-montana-rancher-clone/)** > > Arthur Schubarth used tissue from the world’s largest sheep breed to create a sheep nicknamed Montana Mountain King, whose semen and offspring he sold at high cost. Unpaywalled version: [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-to-sell-for-thousands/ar-BB1jTWzq](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-to-sell-for-thousands/ar-BB1jTWzq) On reading this my reaction was: what’s the big problem? One might think about the effect on other wildlife if they got loose onto public lands: but if this happened they would immediately be hunted to extinction as trophies. And this sheep might have some desirable traits for wool or meat production–but I know nothing about sheep breeding. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/2 "2024-03-15T18:44:57Z")
What I got out of it is that he circumvented a lot of laws meant to preserve genetic heritage in wild sheep as well as a bunch of other livestock related laws, by sneaking in the genetic material of the Central Asian sheep and by selling the sperm of his super-ram that he got created via cloning and other shady practices. I don’t think it was so much the breeding of the giant sheep that was the problem, it’s the way he went about it. An analogy might be that if you build a huge building and circumvent building codes, permitting, and what-not to do so, they’re going to throw you in jail for the circumvention of building codes and permitting, not for actually building the building itself. That’s broadly similar to what’s going on here. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/3 "2024-03-15T19:45:13Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > On reading this my reaction was: what’s the big problem? One might think about the effect on other wildlife if they got loose onto public lands: but if this happened they would immediately be hunted to extinction as trophies. As a general principle, which might or might not become an actual problem in this specific case: introducing a potentially-invasive species has, in fact, caused a huge number of problems in the past; and the appearance of species that become invasive in their new area (often on their own, we don’t do this so much on purpose any longer) is currently causing a huge number of problems. Whether this particular species carries such a risk, I don’t know. But somebody ought to be considering the possibilities before the creatures get bred. AIUI, this particular breeder ignored regulations which exist at least in part for that version. Even if no harm’s done this time: allowing ignoring the regulations is a really bad idea. In addition, he’s mimicking an endangered species; which may make it difficult to enforce reasonable regulations on possessing parts of those species which may be sourced from the actual threatened population, as it might be difficult to tell such parts from parts of his mimics. Further in addition, he used an illegally killed and smuggled member of the threatened population to get the genetics; so that’s quite justifiably illegal all on its own. – ah. Parts of two different such populations; also the Rocky Mountain Bighorn, which is under its own sort of restricted hunting and possession regulations. He’s committed a batch of crimes, even if creating a new species without meeting relevant regulations weren’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/4 "2024-03-15T23:24:41Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > but if this happened they would immediately be hunted to extinction as trophies. That’s incredibly optimistic, but the problem with invasive species is that it’s never that simple. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/5 "2024-03-15T23:57:11Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > One might think about the effect on other wildlife if they got loose onto public lands: but if this happened they would immediately be hunted to extinction as trophies. A cautionary tale: > **[Wild pigs invade Canadian provinces—an emerging crisis for agriculture and...](https://agbio.usask.ca/news/2019/05/wild-pigs-invade-canadian-provincesan-emerging-crisis-for-agriculture-and-the-environment.php)** > > Wild pigs—a mix of wild boar and domestic swine—are spreading rapidly across Canada, threatening native species such as nesting birds, deer, agricultural crops, and farm livestock, research by the University of Saskatchewan (USask) shows. Short version - legally wild boars were imported from the UK and hybridized with domestic pigs in Canada producing a larger animal with an extra rib. Profit! Prices dropped though and a few got out one way or the other. These are huge animals with razor sharp tusks and the immense damage they are causing is small only in comparison to the damage expected as they increasingly cross into the US. Sheep may not be as intelligent and adaptable as pigs and boars but even regulated hybrids have unanticipated harms and need to be proceeded upon cautiously. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2024, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/6 "2024-03-16T06:55:25Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > if this happened they would immediately be hunted to extinction as trophies. You’d think so. You’d think it would be trivially easy to eliminate a large-ish mammal in a restricted area by shooting it. Cape Town certainly thought that about our invasive [Himalayan tahrs](https://www.thetablemountainfund.org.za/the-himalayan-tahrs-of-table-mountain/). They’re still here. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2024, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/7 "2024-03-16T13:10:28Z")
Back when I was a kid, if a story about super sheep was posted it would be met with, “I, for one…” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2024, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/8 "2024-03-16T14:17:47Z")
“… welcome our new ovine overlords.” ---
**Author:** ![Deanna\_D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e495f1/32.png) [@Deanna\_D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deanna_D)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2024, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/9 "2024-03-16T14:35:10Z")
The fact that trophy hunting is still a thing, and that people pay money to hunt captive game is just disgusting on so many levels. And this guy trying to capitalize on that, and violating so many laws that are meant to protect wildlife? Yes, he definitely deserves to be heavily fined, with some jail time tossed in. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/10 "2024-03-21T05:40:44Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > On reading this my reaction was: what’s the big problem? One might think about the effect on other wildlife if they got loose onto public lands: but if this happened they would immediately be hunted to extinction as trophies. There is no Ovis aries sheep hunting season in Montana, but MFWP could certainly exterminate them. Bighorn sheep are a different animal (which are very very VERY hard to get even the tag to hunt them). He wouldn’t necessarily have to sell them there of course, the most likely domestic market is Texas where exotic animals abound. There are lots of concerns, like outcompeting native wildlife and introducing diseases from native stock, primarily brucellosis which can absolutely destroy native sheep and goats. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2024, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/11 "2024-03-21T05:45:44Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Further in addition, he used an illegally killed and smuggled member of the threatened population to get the genetics; so that’s quite justifiably illegal all on its own. – ah. Parts of two different such populations; also the Rocky Mountain Bighorn, which is under its own sort of restricted hunting and possession regulations. I’m not certain it’s illegal, Kyrgyzstan appears to allow (for big $$$$$$). But they appear to be listed under CITES Appendix II - importation is rather restricted without proper permits and it doesn’t seem they have those. It doesn’t quite specify what he did with bighorn parts, I can’t tell if that’s a separate thing or related to this scheme. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2024, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/12 "2024-10-01T11:09:56Z")
Looks like he got a much lighter sentence than I was expecting. Hopefully this deters him and others from trying this sort of thing again. > **[Montana man gets 6 months in prison for cloning giant sheep and breeding it](https://www.nbcmontana.com/news/local/montana-man-to-be-sentenced-for-cloning-giant-sheep-to-breed-large-sheep-for-trophy-hunts)** > > An 81-year-old Montana man was sentenced Monday to six months in federal prison for illegally using tissue and testicles from large sheep hunted in Central Asia ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2024, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/13 "2024-10-01T21:28:01Z")
Six months in prison at 81 years old isn’t all that far off from a life sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/14 "2024-10-02T05:48:50Z")
I dunno. I’ll bet an 81 year old Montana rancher is tougher than any saddle John Wayne ever posed next to. He’ll be out to celebrate his great-great-grandkids birth. My Second Non-sequitur reply: Size breeding has long been a thing in sheep world. My ex always bred down for a specific market of miniatures, but I agree, those horned basterds would be wiped out quick by the gun. People be nuts for the horns. Bigger the better. No way they would keep up with hunters. And a Third: I’ve still got Moley’s head in a bucket in the Falling Down Clubhouse 2010. The whole “Let the bugs pick him clean” thing never really worked out. But he’s not too offensive these days. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/15 "2024-10-02T06:02:11Z")
WTF??? More words. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/16 "2024-10-02T06:09:29Z")
Used. ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/17 "2024-10-02T16:37:05Z")
I’ll tell you one thing - if they ever get some good mastodon or wholly mammoth DNA and want to clone one - get this guy on the team. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2024, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/18 "2024-10-02T18:21:35Z")
Well, there goes our only source of [stroon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norstrilia). ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/19 "2024-10-05T20:08:26Z")
I smell a movie! “Night of the Ovines” ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886/20 "2024-10-05T20:26:54Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > And this sheep might have some desirable traits for wool or meat production–but I know nothing about sheep breeding. > > Thoughts? So, maybe if you know nothing about sheep breeding, you might hold off on deciding that this guy breaking the law is ok? That’s my thought, that the non-experts are far too confident in America. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montana-rancher-illegally-created-giant-hybrid-sheep-should-this-be-a-crime/998886.md?page=2)