# Montgomery County, MD Judge Calls Math "Bizarre" or My Morning in Traffic Court **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 23, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408 "2012-01-23T17:34:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/21 "2012-01-23T19:53:00Z")
Maybe the photo was blurry because you were going too fast. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/22 "2012-01-23T19:53:26Z")
A $40 fine?! I got caught by a red light camera in San Diego. According to it, I was in the intersection 0.8 seconds after the light turned red. The fine was $378. If math hadn’t been already discredited in the eyes of the law, I could compute that to be $1.7 million per hour. It definitely wasn’t worth that much. ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/23 "2012-01-23T20:04:34Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > If math hadn’t been already discredited in the eyes of the law, I could compute that to be $1.7 million per hour. Now _that_ is truly bizarre! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/24 "2012-01-23T20:10:00Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Maybe the photo was blurry because you were going too fast. Well, sure. And did you account for redshifting as you approached the speed of light? ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/25 "2012-01-23T20:14:01Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > A $40 fine?! I got caught by a red light camera in San Diego. According to it, I was in the intersection 0.8 seconds after the light turned red. The fine was $378. :eek: How does California come such an odd number? Oh wait, California. Forget it. Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/26 "2012-01-23T20:14:33Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Well, sure. And did you account for redshifting as you approached the speed of light? I’m pretty sure those speed camera photos are always black-and-white. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/27 "2012-01-23T20:20:18Z")
> [@Edward\_The\_Head](#): > > The thing is that if the OP was only going 34 in a 30, while he was speeding, the camera shouldn’t have taken the photo as they only take photos of people going 12 over the limit. Here in DC the cameras go off at 6 mph over the limit. > [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > If math hadn’t been already discredited in the eyes of the law, I could compute that to be $1.7 million per hour. Yeah, but that’s a conservative estimate. But seriously, I think the OPs case would have been substantially strengthened if the argument had simply stated that based on the photographic evidence and the time stamps, the driver could have been going as slow as 22 mph (or whatever) instead of mentioning the “conservative” estimate of 34, or the possible range of speeds from 22 to 34 mph. Since clearly, based on imprecise time stamps, there’s no way the officer who examined and signed the ticket could conclude that the OP was driving at 34 mph as opposed to 22 (or whatever)… unless there was additional time data that was not presented as part of the ticket that was mailed out. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/28 "2012-01-23T20:24:14Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Well, sure. And did you account for redshifting as you approached the speed of light? Or downshifting as he approached the red light? ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/29 "2012-01-23T20:37:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > But seriously, I think the OPs case would have been substantially strengthened if the argument had simply stated that based on the photographic evidence and the time stamps, the driver could have been going as slow as 22 mph (or whatever) instead of mentioning the “conservative” estimate of 34, or the possible range of speeds from 22 to 34 mph. Since clearly, based on imprecise time stamps, there’s no way the officer who examined and signed the ticket could conclude that the OP was driving at 34 mph as opposed to 22 (or whatever)… unless there was additional time data that was not presented as part of the ticket that was mailed out. I agree. That would have been a much better explanation than my attempt. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/30 "2012-01-23T21:10:05Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > I’m surprised she awarded you anything. IME, pretty much anyone who takes the time to show up in court and contest a ticket will get the fine knocked down a bit. Something to keep in mind if you get a ticket that’s well into three figures. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/31 "2012-01-23T21:38:30Z")
At least having the fine knocked down was an option. When my town had cameras, you had to pay in advance of the hearing. If the police department employee who heard your case refused to dismiss the city’s threat to sue you in civil court (technically that’s all the tickets were), the city just kept the money. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/32 "2012-01-23T21:59:37Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > The standard for infractions is a preponderance of the evidence, not reasonable doubt. **Kimmy** , this surprises me, since an infraction, no matter how minor, is of a criminal-law nature – the state in its prosecutorial capacity vs, the accused. I’m not so much doubting your word as I am seeking clarificartion as to how this comes to be true. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/33 "2012-01-23T22:09:06Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > “Your Honor, worst case scenario: I was speeding. But, on the other hand, what if I wasn’t? Respondent moves to dismiss.” So the fact that the equipment has been proven to be faulty by elementary school math is not something a judge, who has a flipping doctorate, is going to even consider? He’s just going to be stupid and hear “34 mph” and not even think about what was said? No wonder our court system is so fucked up that we have to pay people on both sides to try and cheat to get people honest justice. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/34 "2012-01-23T22:22:43Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > **Kimmy** , this surprises me, since an infraction, no matter how minor, is of a criminal-law nature – the state in its prosecutorial capacity vs, the accused. I’m not so much doubting your word as I am seeking clarificartion as to how this comes to be true. I did a bit of googling, and it seems that the burden of proof tends to be “beyond a reasonable doubt” in most states, but some have decriminalized traffic infractions – like Washington, Hawaii, Maine, Oregon, and probably others (I got tired of looking at links). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/35 "2012-01-23T22:29:06Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > “Your Honor, worst case scenario: I was speeding. But, on the other hand, what if I wasn’t? Respondent moves to dismiss.” “We have plenty of hearsay and conjecture, Your Honor. Those are _kinds_ of evidence.” ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/36 "2012-01-23T22:30:18Z")
> [@Barrett\_Bonden](#): > > I agree. That would have been a much better explanation than my attempt. The real lesson here being, run it past the folks here at the SMDB _before_ you try a defense in court. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/37 "2012-01-23T22:49:35Z")
Here in NZ there’s only one photo. The camera calculates the speed by doppler radar (I think). So your distance/time calculation isn’t possible. When they first came in a bunch of tickets were voided because the police couldn’t prove the cameras had been properly (or recently) calibrated. They’re very particular about that now. In High School I got to play with an old speed gun in physics class. You calibrated it using a tuning fork! Had lots of fun ‘measuring’ how fast we could bowl. None of us could match an international spinner… ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/38 "2012-01-23T23:01:37Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > The real lesson here being, run it past the folks here at the SMDB _before_ you try a defense in court. 😃 I’m sayin! ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/39 "2012-01-23T23:01:57Z")
Out of curiosity, do you honestly believe you weren’t speeding or do you acknowledge you probably were and just wanted to get out of it? You said in the OP that you requested a hearing with the camera operator present. Did that happen? If you are able, it would be interesting to have the two photos posted (with identifying information obscured, of course), and see if the Dope comes to the same mathematical conclusion you did. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/40 "2012-01-24T00:38:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “We have plenty of hearsay and conjecture, Your Honor. Those are _kinds_ of evidence.” You must be that law-talkin’ dude I’ve been hearing so much about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408.md?page=3)