# Montgomery County, MD Judge Calls Math "Bizarre" or My Morning in Traffic Court **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 23, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408 "2012-01-23T17:34:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/61 "2012-01-25T05:44:12Z")
> [@Brainiac4](#): > > Wait, we have documentation on Chewie’s reaction time? I need a cite on that. Well we don’t but I’m just going to go ahead and assume it would be about one thousandth of OJ Simpson’s glove size. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/62 "2012-01-25T05:57:50Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Red light camera tickets are sources of “tax” revenue nothing more Actually, they’re meant to be a deterrent to the assholes who think that saving 30 seconds is worth endangering everyone else on the road. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/63 "2012-01-25T15:04:43Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Actually, they’re meant to be a deterrent to the assholes who think that saving 30 seconds is worth endangering everyone else on the road. Yes, they’re “meant” to be that. But the reality is that they’re a form of revenue. Granted, we could deny them that revenue by not running lights or speeding. But the safe bet is that the cameras will generate money for their government. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/64 "2012-01-25T16:49:06Z")
> [@grude](#): > > You’re not the first to try the mathematically impossible defense to a speeding ticket, hell some people use GPS and all kinds of stuff. It doesn’t change the fact you got nicked for a “tax” and the tax collector(judge) was not qualified to entertain it. > You’re lucky she reduced it, those I’ve seen would not be amused. Luckily, we have a form of government that guarantees people the right to contest even minor charges against them. If a judge has an issue with someone pleading their feeble case and hoping the government does a poor job in making theirs, such a judge is an a-hole and in the wrong line of work. If the OP (or anyone else) is inclined to use their precious time to force the government to prove its case against them, that is their right to exercise and their day spent not working. To the extent that other have a problem with people making the government make its case to an impartial jurist, those complaints should be addressed to our system of government, not people who wish to take advantage of their lawful rights. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/65 "2012-01-25T17:01:06Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Yes, they’re “meant” to be that. But the reality is that they’re a form of revenue. Granted, we could deny them that revenue by not running lights or speeding. But the safe bet is that the cameras will generate money for their government. How else would you have them be a deterrent? I mean, i guess we could take away the licenses of people who run red lights. I’d actually be on board with that; i think that if you are either too selfish or too distracted while driving to stop for a red light, you shouldn’t be on the road. But in the past, when i’ve made such suggestions on this board, people have responded that losing you license is too harsh a penalty. Maybe we could go even more draconian: take away people’s cars or throw the driver in jail. Would you be on board with that? There are some types of traffic-related revenue-raising that i object to. Speed traps where the speed limit drops very suddenly for no apparent reason, and where the lower speed limit clearly has basically no purpose except to give the cops an opportunity to write tickets. The AAA has, over the years, identified some places with particularly egregious examples of this. But red-light cameras are fundamentally different, IMO, and i don’t give a flying fuck how much revenue they raise, because the assholes who run red lights deserve every punishment they get. I have, over the years, seen and heard a few godawful crashes caused by people running the red. There’s no excuse for it, and if you do it then i have no problem with the state relieving you of a few hundred dollars. If you don’t want to pay the tax, don’t run the light. Pretty fucking simple, really. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/66 "2012-01-25T17:08:34Z")
> [@Barrett\_Bonden](#): > > What do they teach in schools these days? I take it that you sped past the part in Driver’s Education where they teach you not to speed. > [@Barrett\_Bonden](#): > > I said in my OP it was a waste of my own time, which I knew at the outset. And you wasted the taxpayers’ dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/67 "2012-01-25T18:14:25Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I take it that you sped past the part in Driver’s Education where they teach you not to speed. I’ve admitted it was likely I was doing thirty-four in a thirty mile an hour zone and I’m not defending or excusing that fact. You can keep swinging all you want. > [@Muffin](#): > > And you wasted the taxpayers’ dollars. If taxpayers dollars are being spent in ways to which I object, I will happily waste taxpayer dollars (in addition to my own time) expressing my objections. Well, perhaps not happily, but should the occasion arise, I will do it. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/68 "2012-01-25T18:35:44Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > There are some types of traffic-related revenue-raising that i object to. Speed traps where the speed limit drops very suddenly for no apparent reason, and where the lower speed limit clearly has basically no purpose except to give the cops an opportunity to write tickets. The AAA has, over the years, identified some places with particularly egregious examples of this. As I said before, that’s what these speed cameras are, at least in Montgomery county. As I’ve said before, there are a over 100 just on county roads alone, that doesn’t include all of the ones that are inside of cities. The last I heard there are around 200 cameras around. They are all speed cameras, I think we have a couple of red light cameras. All of the cameras I know about seem exactly like speed traps. They rarely put them around schools, something I would support more if they did. Rather they put them on roads that drop from 40-50 to 30 for no real reason. All people do is speed down the road, slam on their brakes then speed back up again. It does nothing for safety. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/69 "2012-01-25T19:27:56Z")
> [@Edward\_The\_Head](#): > > As I said before, that’s what these speed cameras are, at least in Montgomery county. As I’ve said before, there are a over 100 just on county roads alone, that doesn’t include all of the ones that are inside of cities. The last I heard there are around 200 cameras around. They are all speed cameras, I think we have a couple of red light cameras. Then i guess you’re not arguing with me, then, because my main point in this thread has been about red-light cameras. I should add, though, that there are some perfectly good, non-revenue reasons for putting up speed cameras on county roads. Those are the types of road where a lot of people speed, and where that speed can be dangerous precisely _because_ the roads are sometimes relatively narrow and windy. I’ve seen people flying down county roads in Maryland at 70 miles per hour, and all it would take for a disaster is a moment’s inattention, or rounding a curve to find a car parked at the side of the road, or some other similar incident. I’m no anti-speeding zealot. I spend most of my time driving at 75-80 miles per hour on Southern California freeways. But there are plenty of assholes who, when they speed, take no account of the type of road, the weather conditions, the other people in the area, etc. There’s speeding, and there’s speeding that is also dangerous driving. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/70 "2012-01-25T19:38:27Z")
The way to deal with arguably inappropriate speed regulations is through the politicians, not the courts. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/71 "2012-01-26T03:14:42Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > How else would you have them be a deterrent? > > I mean, i guess we could take away the licenses of people who run red lights. I’d actually be on board with that; i think that if you are either too selfish or too distracted while driving to stop for a red light, you shouldn’t be on the road. But in the past, when i’ve made such suggestions on this board, people have responded that losing you license is too harsh a penalty. > > Maybe we could go even more draconian: take away people’s cars or throw the driver in jail. Would you be on board with that? > > There are some types of traffic-related revenue-raising that i object to. Speed traps where the speed limit drops very suddenly for no apparent reason, and where the lower speed limit clearly has basically no purpose except to give the cops an opportunity to write tickets. The AAA has, over the years, identified some places with particularly egregious examples of this. > > But red-light cameras are fundamentally different, IMO, and i don’t give a flying fuck how much revenue they raise, because the assholes who run red lights deserve every punishment they get. I have, over the years, seen and heard a few godawful crashes caused by people running the red. There’s no excuse for it, and if you do it then i have no problem with the state relieving you of a few hundred dollars. If you don’t want to pay the tax, don’t run the light. Pretty fucking simple, really. You seem to think that I’m against the cameras. I’m all for them. Like I said, if you don’t want to pay the fine, don’t speed or run red lights. But don’t think that local govts consider them as a deterrents first and revenue second. It’s always the other order. ---
**Author:** ![brujaja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@brujaja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brujaja)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/72 "2012-01-26T09:26:15Z")
Hon, I think it’s awesome that you have the kind of mind that came up with this particular objection to your citations in the first place. I think it’s awesome that you have the math skills to put your argument together, and the initiative to do the right research. I also think it’s awesome that you have the confidence of your convictions (no pun intended) sufficient to stand in court, and state your case. But, think about the kinds of things that judge must hear people say when contesting a ticket. Think about what ten random people off the street would probably say. …It _ **is** _ a little bizarre. Not bad, not wrong, not crazy — but probably the only time she’s ever heard that. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/73 "2012-01-31T22:39:12Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Sure it was. > > Anyone in the middle of an intersection almost a full second _after_ the light has turned red is a hazard to everyone on the road, and deserves to pay every penny of their multi-hundred dollar fine. We’ll have to agree to disagree on that point. I shouldn’t have tried to shoot the yellow light, but I had been waiting a full five minutes to turn left already, and the arrow only turned green for 15 seconds. (I was third in line to turn.) Also, I was out of the intersection fully five seconds before the light from any other direction turned green, so actually I wasn’t even an inconvenience to anyone, much less a “hazard to everyone”. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/74 "2012-01-31T23:23:33Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > I shouldn’t have tried to shoot the yellow light… That’s all you needed to write. And if the red light camera caught you, then you didn’t just “shoot the yellow”; you shot the red. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/75 "2012-02-01T01:23:52Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > A $40 fine?! I got caught by a red light camera in San Diego. According to it, I was in the intersection 0.8 seconds after the light turned red. The fine was $378. > > If math hadn’t been already discredited in the eyes of the law, I could compute that to be $1.7 million per hour. It definitely wasn’t worth that much. So you went through a red light. > [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > We’ll have to agree to disagree on that point. I shouldn’t have tried to shoot the yellow light, but I had been waiting a full five minutes to turn left already, and the arrow only turned green for 15 seconds. (I was third in line to turn.) Also, I was out of the intersection fully five seconds before the light from any other direction turned green, so actually I wasn’t even an inconvenience to anyone, much less a “hazard to everyone”. By your logic, either everyone including yourself should be permitted to go through red lights wihtout stopping after looking both ways, or for some reason you are exceptional such that you in particular unlike the rest of the drivers on the road should be permitted to go through red lights without stopping after looking both ways, or you have confused yield signs and flashing yellow lights with red lights, or you think that you are an emergency vehicle on a emergency call. Every single one of these give me doubt as to whether your judgment should be trusted, so please, in the future, follow the rules of the road and do your best to stop at yellow lights rather than go through red lights. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/76 "2012-02-01T07:14:04Z")
No, there you are making a faulty application of my logic. I didn’t say I should have been permitted to run the light, only that I was not a hazard to everyone, or, in fact anyone. As far as what color light I shot, that’s a matter of interpretation. It was yellow when I entered the intersection, and I estimated that I could exit it before it turned red, an estimate I missed by 0.8 seconds. I paid the fine without argument, by the way, and when I say it wasn’t worth it, I mean to me. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/77 "2012-02-01T07:37:53Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > As far as what color light I shot, that’s a matter of interpretation. It was yellow when I entered the intersection, and I estimated that I could exit it before it turned red, an estimate I missed by 0.8 seconds. You said that you got your ticket in San Diego. From the [City of San Diego](http://www.sandiego.gov/engineering-cip/services/public/rlphoto/faq.shtml#color) website: > [@](#): > > **What happens if I’m in the intersection when the light changes color?** > > You will only receive a citation if you enter the intersection after the signal turns red. If you find yourself “trapped” in the intersection while the signal turns from yellow to red, you will not get a citation. So, if you got a red light ticket in San Diego, the light was _not_ yellow when you entered the intersection. Furthermore, every jurisdiction i’ve ever lived in has had a similar policy, with the red light cameras only triggered by cars that enter the intersection _after_ the light switched from yellow to red. So, when you say that what color light you shot is “a matter of interpretation,” i think you mean “a matter of my imagination.” ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/78 "2012-02-01T13:38:27Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I think the OP tried the “I may have been speeding, but if I was, worst case scenario, I wasn’t speeding as much as they said I was, so there’s an error on the ticket and you can’t make me pay it!” defense. > > …which won’t work, math or not. I had a ticket once that had my hair color, gender, the date and the last number of my license plate wrong. This was not an automated ticket, but one written by an actual police officer. Turns out that it takes a whole lot more than factual errors for speeding tickets to be “thrown out on a technicality” the way murders are on primetime crime dramas. Not always. I got a ticket dismissed because the cop had me going east on a north-south street. Lots of people here have insisted that speed is checked by radar and the camera is only for identification. If this is the case why didn’t someone in court say so? And, if this is the case why are two pictures taken? And, where is the radar? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/79 "2012-02-01T18:43:13Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > Lots of people here have insisted that speed is checked by radar and the camera is only for identification. If this is the case why didn’t someone in court say so? And, if this is the case why are two pictures taken? And, where is the radar? The OP was ticketed in Montgomery County, Maryland. Here is a [sample citation](http://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/content/Pol/districts/FSB/sod/speed/pdfs/Citation.pdf) (pdf) from Montgomery County. If you look at the images in the citation, you’ll see the word Gatsometer in small white print at the bottom-right of the pictures, in the black area. Gatsometer BV is a Dutch company that makes speed cameras. According to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatso): > [@](#): > > The most commonly encountered Gatso speed cameras emit radar beams to measure the speed of a passing vehicle. If it is travelling above the preset trigger speed, one or two photographs are taken (depending on the device’s setting, which generally depends on the requirements of the local jurisdiction). These use a powerful flash, to show the rear of the vehicle, its registration plate, and calibration lines on the road (in many jurisdictions). It appears from the article, though, that the radar reading is used _in conjunction with_ the pictures. The pictures are, in many jurisdictions, aided by a measurement strip on the road surface. According to the Wiki article, the photos are used because: > [@](#): > > The speed indicated by the radar unit is too unreliable to be used as the sole means of evidence as it is prone to error due to multiple reflections etc. Further, it does not distinguish between multiple vehicles in shot. So, it seems that the radar determines the speed of the car and triggers the camera if the speed is too high. The photos are then taken and examined, and are used as evidence of the driver’s speed. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408/80 "2012-02-01T19:22:49Z")
> [@Barrett\_Bonden](#): > > I used satellite mapping to estimate the average length of the lane stripes on that stretch of road (about ten feet each) and was then able to conservatively estimate that my car had moved ten feet or fewer between the first and second photo.[/SIZE] A couple of things are wrong here. First, you are using satellite photos to estimate. Second, you don’t actually know precisely the time between the two photos. You don’t have accurate measurements of the distance or the time. Your data sucks, and you can’t make reliable calculations from shitty data. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/montgomery-county-md-judge-calls-math-bizarre-or-my-morning-in-traffic-court/610408.md?page=5)