# Monty at the Bulge: Withdrawal the best strategy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 31, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746 "2016-03-31T14:01:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Wikipedia_Cites)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/1 "2016-03-31T14:01:12Z")
A graphic novel about the Battle of the Bulge says that Bernard Montgomery wanted the US forces to pull back from the Bulge sectors and let the German attack exhaust itself out, through lack of supplies and fuel; then counter-attack. The US Generals refused to fight by retreating. It seems to be that Monty would have the stronger argument though–why not fall back and then counterattack a much weaker and spread out enemy? Was Monty right? ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/2 "2016-03-31T16:07:50Z")
I predict this won’t take long to descend into the usual ill-informed character assassination of Montgomery from our American friends, that will have little or nothing based upon his actual merits as an Army Group commander. I will try to come back to you tomorrow, only as I am off out this evening. Maybe I will be in for a nice surprise when I get back to his but I’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/3 "2016-03-31T16:26:59Z")
Monty was a well-poisoner! Oh, wait, I’m Canadian. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/4 "2016-03-31T16:35:39Z")
> [@No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](#): > > A graphic novel about the Battle of the Bulge says Best user name/post combo ever. Want to hear what I read about in unnamed comic books? ---
**Author:** ![No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Wikipedia_Cites)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/5 "2016-03-31T17:20:01Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Best user name/post combo ever. Want to hear what I read about in unnamed comic books? Yet ironically your post is the unhelpful one, and rude to boot! The [title](http://www.amazon.com/The-Battle-Bulge-1944-1945-Histories/dp/0760346224)of the book isn’t necessary to answer the question. The book is also sourced from existing histories of the Battle and contains a bibliography, as since you care for details, you may examine yourself at your local library. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/6 "2016-03-31T18:13:26Z")
> [@No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](#): > > A graphic novel about the Battle of the Bulge says that Bernard Montgomery wanted the US forces to pull back from the Bulge sectors and let the German attack exhaust itself out, through lack of supplies and fuel; then counter-attack. The US Generals refused to fight by retreating. > > It seems to be that Monty would have the stronger argument though–why not fall back and then counterattack a much weaker and spread out enemy? > > Was Monty right? Eventually you would have to stiffen up- there was not unlimited room to withdraw; the Germans would either reach and capture Antwerp, and/or they’d cut off the 12th Army Group north of the Bulge. So Monty’s approach would only have worked so far, up to the point when you DID have to stop the German Advance. I think the hope would have been that when that point came, the Germans would be out of fuel and worn out, and would be easy pickings for Allied troops not in the same situation. The American commanders did exactly what you’re \*supposed \*to do in their situation- channelize the attack and keep pinching it narrower by fighting hard at the flanks (see the fighting for Elsenborn Ridge as an example), and then when the enemy advance stops, counter-attacking to regain the lost ground, and hopefully go on the counter-offensive. Basically as the defender, you manage their attack, rather than let them fight when and where they wanted. Both ideas stem from the fact that most strategic offensives like that have limited resources and time available to them, and if you delay them or let themselves wear themselves out without fighting, you throw their offensive off, and let them use up their resources without actually achieving their objectives. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/7 "2016-03-31T19:00:53Z")
> [@No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](#): > > A graphic novel about the Battle of the Bulge says that Bernard Montgomery wanted the US forces to pull back from the Bulge sectors and let the German attack exhaust itself out, through lack of supplies and fuel; then counter-attack. The US Generals refused to fight by retreating. > > It seems to be that Monty would have the stronger argument though–why not fall back and then counterattack a much weaker and spread out enemy? > > Was Monty right? A graphic novel about the Battle of the Bulge? 😛 Well, I don’t have the graphic novel, but a quick Google search show [this](http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/monty-holds-a-press-conference): > [@](#): > > On December 16, 1944, the Germans attempted to push the Allied front line west from northern France to northwestern Belgium. The Battle of the Bulge (so-called because the Germans, in pushing through the American defensive line, created a “bulge” around the area of the Ardennes forest) was the largest battle fought on the Western front. The German assault came in early morning at the weakest part of the Allied line, an 80-mile stretch of poorly protected, hilly forest that the Allies believed was too difficult to traverse, and therefore an unlikely location for a German offensive. Between the vulnerability of the thin, isolated American units and the thick fog that prevented Allied air cover from discovering German movement, the Germans were able to push the Americans into retreat. > > Fresh from commanding the 21st Army group during the Normandy invasion, and having suffered an awful defeat in September as his troops attempted to cross the Rhine, Montgomery took temporary command of the northern shoulder of American and British troops in the Ardennes. He immediately fell into a familiar pattern, failing to act spontaneously for fear of not being sufficiently prepared. Montgomery was afraid to move before the German army had fully exhausted itself, finally making what American commanders saw as only a belated counterattack against the enemy. As the weather improved, American air cover raided German targets on the ground, which proved the turning point in the Allied victory. Monty eventually cut across northern Germany all the way to the Baltic and accepted the German surrender in May. > > Montgomery had already earned the ire of many American officers because of his cautiousness in the field, arrogance off the field, and willingness to disparage his American counterparts. The last straw was Montgomery’s whitewashing of the Battle of the Bulge facts to assembled reporters in his battlefield headquarters—he made his performance in the Ardennes sound not only more heroic but decisive, which necessarily underplayed the Americans’ performance. Since the loss of American life in the battle was tremendous and the surrender of 7,500 members of the 106th Infantry humiliating, Gen. Omar Bradley complained loudly to Dwight D. Eisenhower, who passed the complaints on to Churchill. On January 18, Churchill addressed Parliament and announced in no uncertain terms that the “Bulge” was an American battle—and an American victory. I suppose to decide if he was ‘right’ or not you’d have to look at the actual battle and the results and then figure out if there was an alternative that would have been more optimal. I seriously doubt you could make that case, though, since it worked out pretty well for the allies as it happened. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/8 "2016-03-31T19:15:30Z")
The problem is units fighting defensively are usually stronger than units fighting offensively. You can get around this by massing troops at a point of attack or by attacking by surprise (which is why the German offensive initially succeeded). So the Germans would be easier to defeat if the allies fought them while they were attacking rather than withdrawing and allowing them to occupy the territory. If that had happened the allies would have had to then try to recapture that lost territory and fought the Germans who would now be dug in on the defense. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/9 "2016-03-31T19:17:31Z")
> [@notquitekarpov](#): > > I predict this won’t take long to descend into the usual ill-informed character assassination of Montgomery from our American friends, that will have little or nothing based upon his actual merits as an Army Group commander. > > I will try to come back to you tomorrow, only as I am off out this evening. Maybe I will be in for a nice surprise when I get back to his but I’m not holding my breath. Don’t worry. You were able to post your prejudicial attacks before anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/10 "2016-03-31T19:38:02Z")
Found [this](https://todayshistorylesson.wordpress.com/2010/01/07/montgomery-weighs-in-on-the-bulge/) as well: > [@](#): > > And while one shouldn’t understate the inherent German weakness in the December offensive – weakness caused by increased Allied bombing and pressure from the West, the East (from where the Soviet hordes were descending), and the South – care should also be taken not to understate the contributions made by Allied soldiers…particularly American soldiers. It’s easy to forget that, in spite of the multiple countries coming at Germany from the West, 90% of the soldiers that fought in the Ardennes were Americans…many of them with little combat experience. > > The 99th and 2nd Divisions were green troops or recuperating troops, sent to a relatively “quiet sector” to gain experience (or regain health) before moving to the front lines. On December 16th, the front lines came to them in traumatic fashion, and relative “boys in war” became men, doing so at a price that stained the pristine Ardennes snow a bloody red. American casualties were the heaviest of any campaign fought anywhere during the War. Nearly 20,000 Americans were killed and another 70,000 were wounded or captured. But they held against a most determined and desperate foe. > > So it shouldn’t surprise us to learn that American commanders, stinging from their miscalculation and reeling from their losses, were angry…no, incensed is a better word…by British Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery’s actions on January 7, 1945. It was then that he held a press conference, largely taking credit for stopping the Germans. > > Monty said, “As soon as I saw what was happening, I took certain steps myself to ensure that if the Germans got to the Meuse they would certainly not get over the river.” > > In his book The Longest Winter, Alex Kershaw says, “The picture Montgomery gave of the battle was of massive American blundering: only when he had been brought in to command the armies holding the northern shoulder had catastrophe been averted.” > > In fact, it was the 99th, outnumbered and holding under intense pressure and bitter cold at Elsenborn Ridge (which we’ll cover at some point), that allowed the northern shoulder to hold. Max Hastings, one of my favorite historical authors, writes in his book Armageddon that Monty “opened a petrol can on to Anglo-American tensions, then used the personal pronoun to ignite it. . . . Even after sixty years, it remains astonishing that a highly intelligent man who had reached the summit of command could be capable of such vainglorious folly.” I’m sure this is just American Monty bashing though. Oh, and just for the OP, here is the [wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bulge) on the Battle of the Bulge. 😉 Yeah, it’s not a graphic novel, but it seems to be the next best thing. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/11 "2016-03-31T19:49:06Z")
> [@No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](#): > > A graphic novel about the Battle of the Bulge says that Bernard Montgomery wanted the US forces to pull back from the Bulge sectors and let the German attack exhaust itself out, through lack of supplies and fuel; then counter-attack. The US Generals refused to fight by retreating. > > It seems to be that Monty would have the stronger argument though–why not fall back and then counterattack a much weaker and spread out enemy? > > Was Monty right? No, Monty was not right. The Allies were completely surprised by the Nazi advance thru the Ardennes in 1944. Just as they were in 1940. In 1940, it only took two days to reach the Meuse River. And then onward to the English Channel and Dunkirk. The Allies, including Monty, had no idea how large of an army they were facing 1944. Why would anyone think it would be a good idea to allow the Nazi’s to again continue on to/towards Antwerp? Of course, THAT plan would have allowed Montgomery’s 21st Army Group to see action against the Nazis. Considering the fact that the Allies had air superiority over Europe, it would make more sense to hold them in the bulge, and finishing them off with airpower and artillery when the weather cleared. As it was, _on January 5th Walter Bedel Smith issued a press statement from SHEAF HQ in which he stated that the US 9th and 1st Armies were under the direction of Montgomery and had been since December 20th_. > **[Montgomery Weighs in on the Bulge](https://todayshistorylesson.wordpress.com/2010/01/07/montgomery-weighs-in-on-the-bulge/)** > > A morning with temps above 0°!!  We actually started today at +12, but of course it came with 5-6″ of snow.  And now we’ve got 40-50mph wind gusts, which means terrible road conditions.… And on Jan 18, 1945, Churchill made it clear that The Battle of the Bulge was an American victory. [http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/monty-holds-a-press-conference](http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/monty-holds-a-press-conference) ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/12 "2016-03-31T20:04:23Z")
Here’s one of the best (albeit from a firmly US point of view) sources on the battle: [http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/007/7-8-1/index.html](http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/007/7-8-1/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/13 "2016-03-31T21:09:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Don’t worry. You were able to post your prejudicial attacks before anyone else. On reflection, of course, the most appropriate possible reply was “Nuts!” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/14 "2016-03-31T22:08:45Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > On reflection, of course, the most appropriate possible reply was “Nuts!” ‘I got Monty’s ‘bulge’ ri’ht heah!’… ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/15 "2016-03-31T22:19:54Z")
From what I’ve read of the battle, the Germans took Allied forces initially by surprise, smashing through the lines and capturing a considerable number of prisoners. Would there really have been time for an organized Allied retreat to regroup? And would failure to engage the enemy have allowed them to conserve their ammunition and fuel for a longer period, until they were closer to their objectives? And this doesn’t take into account that falling back in headlong retreat probably wasn’t a politically viable option, even if someone thought it was militarily expedient. But we shouldn’t pick on Monty. It’s Douglas Haig who was the real British weenie. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/16 "2016-03-31T22:32:31Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > From what I’ve read of the battle, the Germans took Allied forces initially by surprise, smashing through the lines and capturing a considerable number of prisoners. Would there really have been time for an organized Allied retreat to regroup? And would failure to engage the enemy have allowed them to conserve their ammunition and fuel for a longer period, until they were closer to their objectives? > > And this doesn’t take into account that falling back in headlong retreat probably wasn’t a politically viable option, even if someone thought it was militarily expedient. It would also have allowed the Germans to build momentum and consolidate their logistics, as well as giving them tons (literally) of captured supplies they badly needed. I’m unsure if, in the end, it really would have made that much difference except that IMHO the allies would have taken even more losses…retreats are always touchy things and they can easily turn into rout. In the end, though, the Germans were doomed…there was no way that this plan could have worked, regardless of it’s initial success. What we did do, however, was put their entire plan on the wrong foot from the get go, forced them to fight harder where they weren’t expecting too and stuffed up their either logistics plan…which left them very vulnerable when the weather did change to allied air strikes that devastated an already wrong footed and now badly discouraged German force. Personally, I’ve never seen anyone (except Monty) who thought it was a good idea for the US to withdraw in the face of such huge strategic surprise attack, and I think it would have been a disaster for American forces who faced the brunt of the attack and with troops that were ill prepared for it. Trying to have those troops maneuver and do a successful fighting retreat in the face of such an attack and the loss of morale would have been…ill advised…IMHO. A veteran and cohesive army not taken by such surprise? Yeah, that might work. But not the forces that the US actually had there at the time and in that situation. ---
**Author:** ![Sampsiceramos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Sampsiceramos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampsiceramos)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/17 "2016-03-31T22:37:52Z")
It is my understanding that retreat would likely have meant the capture of the Allied fuel dump (which Kampfgruppe Peiper was within 2 kilometres of at its closest) between Stavelot and Francorchamps, totalling almost 10 million litres of fuel. Not an easily recoverable loss of materiel, I would think. I am not intimately familiar with the scale of the logistics involved in the Western theatre, but 10 million litres of gasoline does not strike me as something one simply replaces, nor does it strike me as an amount one simply retreats with. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/18 "2016-03-31T23:42:36Z")
Two of my Patrons at the library job had been at the Bulge. One guy, “I hated those bastards, and killed every one I could find,” mentioned that his unit was lost. They cautiously approached a light. It was so cold that they couldn’t sit down, for they would freeze to death. It was an American unit, and a sergeant invited him to, “Pull up a Kraut and sit down.” The second guy had been captured. He was going to take a trip with other veterans back there. He had no idea where they were, and was looking for books on the area. The German officer in charge of the prisoners knew they would lose, and was letting prisoners escape on the pretext of needing to go into the bushes. When they were liberated by an American unit, two former prisoners were given Tommy guns. They took a particularly abusive guard away from the others and killed him. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/19 "2016-04-01T00:31:12Z")
> [@Sampsiceramos](#): > > It is my understanding that retreat would likely have meant the capture of the Allied fuel dump (which Kampfgruppe Peiper was within 2 kilometres of at its closest) between Stavelot and Francorchamps, totalling almost 10 million litres of fuel. Then that would have placed it on the old section of the [Spa Grand Prix track](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_de_Spa-Francorchamps). ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746/20 "2016-04-01T01:56:58Z")
> [@XT's link](#): > > He immediately fell into a familiar pattern, failing to act spontaneously for fear of not being sufficiently prepared. Montgomery was afraid to move before the German army had fully exhausted itself… > > Montgomery had already earned the ire of many American officers because of his cautiousness in the field, arrogance off the field, and willingness to disparage his American counterparts. He was channeling George McClellan? :eek: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-at-the-bulge-withdrawal-the-best-strategy/750746.md?page=2)