# Monty, you are a wretched LIAR! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 22, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033 "2003-09-22T02:43:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/101 "2003-09-22T16:17:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ambushed \* > \*\*You’re right; those are very personal questions. > > However, I’ll gladly answer them if you can show me why it matters. The truth is the truth. I am _not_ engaged on some campaign against the LDS Church. The facts clearly reveal that to honest, careful readers. > > I criticize that which deserves criticism. In the case of religion, I’ve criticized the Roman Catholic Church for their hideously disgraceful child sexual abuse scandals and I’ve criticized the Catholics, Southern Baptists, and Mormons for their above-and-beyond political activism against homosexuals. > > The only reason the LDS Church came up is because the thread was about them and them alone. So there’s absolutely no grounds to claim bias, if that’s what you were going to suggest. \*\* Whoa, fella, you need to lay off the caffeine. All I was trying to do was figure out where you are coming from. And if a person does, or does not, practice a religion, that can shed some light on their outlook in a post that’s about a particular faith. I tried to be polite as I knew how about asking about a personal matter. You sound as if you have been hurt by religion at some time. I hope you can be free of that pain, and I’ll remember you( and the other thread participants), in my prayers tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/102 "2003-09-22T16:18:01Z")
To be charitable, we might choose to assume that, in the passage quoted, **ambushed** was using hyperbole deliberately to emphasize the point. After reading this thread, I’m convinced that **ambushed** is not entirely unacquainted with hyperbole … ---
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/103 "2003-09-22T16:26:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ambushed \*The rest of you might like to know that yosemitebabe’s raving, ignorant hatred derives from this thread: > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=206188](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=206188) > Where she stupidly but vigorously **defended siccing the cops on her and other kids** if they dared to disobey her orders against peer intimacy. Her vapid, purely emotional arguments to the effect that juvenile imprisonment was better for kids than becoming intimate of their own accord was bested by the arguments of myself and others. We never interacted at any other time, and she was absolutely no part of the current debate. She’s simply lashing out based on her sad need for revenge. Pay her no mind. While I may not agree with what she was advocating, that being a last ditch method for parents to reign out of control children, I believe you have extremely overexaggerated this. I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re still willing to concede something, so please take back your statement about yosemitebabe, and apologize, because what you said was nothing more than a baldfaced lie. I won’t even go into the horrible accusations and assumptions you made about her, but the essence of your post about her defending child-abuse is inherently wrong. Apologize for it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/104 "2003-09-22T16:55:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Baker \* > Whoa, fella, you need to lay off the caffeine. Ah, so _that’s_ what ambushed has against the LDS church! [Foghorn Leghorn]That’s a joke, I say a joke.[/Foghorn Leghorn] ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/105 "2003-09-22T16:58:45Z")
Okay, two points. First of all, I rarely venture down into the Pit. Secondly, and more importantly, I have _not_ read the entire thread which prompted this pitting. My post does not rely on anything said in that thread. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ambushed \* > **Monty lied. I didn’t.** Maybe Monty lied. Maybe he misinterpreted you. But you know what? I don’t care. You’re coming across as a complete and utter asshole, and Monty’s not. Maybe if you could manage to argue this without insulting everyone who’s not 100% convinced that you’re right, maybe if you could pull off this pitting without invoking a mental image of a large man yelling himself red in the face, eyes wild with rage and spittle flying everywhere, maybe then I’d give a fuck about whether or not Monty lied. As things stand, you have managed to turn most people against you (possibly in _spite_ of the truth) based solely in your attitude. Being _correct_ is not sufficient to win an argument. Righteous indignation will only get you so far. Hopefully, shooting yourself in the foot like this will be a learning experience. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/106 "2003-09-22T17:05:38Z")
> [@](#): > > CITE and QUOTE exactly where I condemned every single Mormon as you so despicably claimed, or admit you’re making this shit up! I already did, psycho, in the thread that you wussed out of, after which you crapped your pants and opened a new one where big, bad, mean ol’ Monty & SPOOFE, the Tag-Team Duo Of Evil, pointed out all the facts that you supposedly hold so near-and-dear. Since it means so much to you, I’ll quote what I said in the other thread, bolding mine: > [@](#): > > “ **The LDS Church** ’s hatred of homosexuals and homosexuality is truly contemptible!” (not “The hatred some members of the LDS church…”) > > “I had a close gay Mormon friend who KILLED HIMSELF after **the Church** once again told him how wretchedly evil and God-hating he was merely by being gay!” (not “…Some members of the Church…”) Note that those are YOUR WORDS in quotation marks. That is what YOU WROTE. Those are GENERALIZATIONS that YOU USED. In short, you are full of shit, you are a liar, you are a loud, obnoxious, psychopathic, irrational, delusional nut. You’re playing poker with 51 cards, you’ve misplaced your marbles, you’ve taken a flight right above the cuckoo’s nest, you need to tighten your screws, and many other metaphors to point out just how pathetic a grip on reality you have. Care to explain just HOW those cites I mentioned above are NOT generalized condemnations of the Mormon church, and how they do NOT encompass each and every member therein? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/107 "2003-09-22T17:20:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Hopefully, shooting yourself in the foot like this will be a learning experience. _Learning experience_?! Learning what, pray tell – how to hang out with the Ti-D-Bowl Man? **ambushed** has just joined the ranks of **Beryl\_Mooncalf** as a candidate for a username and/or attitude change. He/she had been ranting **all Sunday** , ferchrissakes, through Board glitches, numerous gentle warnings and general humiliation, depending simply from what appears to be one little imperfect sophistic exchange about _gratifica_… On preview, I note **SPOOFE** has taken a slightly different tack on said sophistry. _Holy shit, did you see that fuckin’ head come apart, man_? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/108 "2003-09-22T17:22:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > Care to explain just HOW those cites I mentioned above are NOT generalized condemnations of the Mormon church, and how they do NOT encompass each and every member therein? Well, it’s obvious innit - it’s because you’re clearly lying. That was your fatal mistake, albeit one common of LIARS. You’re just feigning ignorance (another form of **lying** ). The evidence keeps stacking up… ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/109 "2003-09-22T17:30:57Z")
Actually, parsing the title of the OP, “Monty, you are a wretched LIAR!”, I deem that this indicates that **Monty** is in fact wretched at being a LIAR. In other words, he is an incompetent LIAR, and is therefore telling the truth. Thus **ambushed** needs a big pat on the back for being such a complimentary chap (and perhaps some tranquilizers). ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/110 "2003-09-22T17:51:57Z")
Looks like **Monty** found himself another pet. Rabid, as usual. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/111 "2003-09-22T17:53:47Z")
Most respectfully, **jjimm** , I hit on this \*[misplaced modifier\*](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=4014490#post4014490) some time ago… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/112 "2003-09-22T18:03:08Z")
I swear, Jeff; if only my landlord would let me keep a dog in the apartment! ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/113 "2003-09-22T18:13:26Z")
> [@](#): > > “The LDS Church’s hatred of homosexuals and homosexuality is truly contemptible!” (not “The hatred some members of the LDS church…”) > > Note that those are YOUR WORDS in quotation marks. That is what YOU WROTE. Those are GENERALIZATIONS that YOU USED. Just a question. . . is it not possible to indict an institution for bad conduct? While there are liberal Mormons who are gay-friendly, the Mormon Church as an institution is famously hostile to gay rights–that’s a matter of public record. I don’t understand how attacking one entity counts as a generalization; doesn’t the nature of a generalization entail making a blanket statement about many entities? ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/114 "2003-09-22T19:12:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Just a question. . . is it not possible to indict an institution for bad conduct? Sure it is. But Ambushed is claiming that he did not indict the _institution_, only some members of the institution. > [@](#): > > the Mormon Church as an institution is famously hostile to gay rights As disheartening as the Mormon Church’s official stance on homosexuality (and other “sinful” activities), to lambast the church for driving a boy to suicide is the height of assholery. Surely, Gobear, you can see the difference between saying “The Church is intolerant of gays” and “MORMONS FORCE GAY PEOPLE TO SUICIDE!!!” ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/115 "2003-09-22T19:29:10Z")
> [@](#): > > As disheartening as the Mormon Church’s official stance on homosexuality (and other “sinful” activities), to lambast the church for driving a boy to suicide is the height of assholery. > > Surely, Gobear, you can see the difference between saying “The Church is intolerant of gays” and “MORMONS FORCE GAY PEOPLE TO SUICIDE!!!” But is **Ambushed** saying “MORMONS FORCE GAY PEOPLE TO SUICIDE!!!” or “THE MORMON CHURCH’S TEACHINGS ON HOMOSEXUALITY FORCE GAY PEOPLE TO SUICIDE!!!”? The former is, as you say, assholery, but the second is a perhaps hyperbolic but not wholly inaccurate recognition of the intense pressure that religion can place on impressionable young gay people. It’s bad enough knowing that you are The Only One with a Shameful Secret, but the knowledge that God knows and hates you for your desires is too much to bear for some. I am firmly convinced that the insensitivity and downright cruelty of pastoral counselors in many denominations are responsible for many gay teen suicides. Here is one [example](http://archives.pottsville.com/archives/1998/Apr/28/D151470.htm) of teen suicide caused by religious anti-gay preaching. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/116 "2003-09-22T19:45:03Z")
Here’s a better [link](http://www.washblade.com/2003/9-19/news/national/patown.cfm) to that story. > [@](#): > > During the trial, Willinsky denied he threatened to inform the grandfather or anyone else that Wayman was gay. But the patrolman acknowledged that he lectured the two youths about the Bible’s strictures against homosexuality ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/117 "2003-09-22T20:35:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > \*\*Most respectfully, **jjimm** , I hit on this \*[misplaced modifier\*](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=4014490#post4014490) some time ago… \*\* Bollocks, yours was wittier and more subtle, too. Touché. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/118 "2003-09-22T21:07:40Z")
Hmm…my two cents: Cent #1) Sweet Jeebus, **ambushed** , calm down! It’s just a bunch of bored slackers on a messageboard; who gives a shit what they think? Cent #2) You guys baiting him are being both pettily vicious and inaccurate, IMO. There’s no way to honestly get from his quote to suggesting that the purpose of the interview is gratification. If I said, for example, that there’s variation from gym teacher to gym teacher, but often male gym teachers ogle high-school girls, I might be talking out my ass – but that’s not at all the same as saying that the purpose of high-school gym class is to let adult men ogle high-school girls. **Monty** was, to be charitable, engaging in hyperbole. I don’t know what run-ins people have had in the past with him. For all I know, he’s been obnoxiously anti-Mormon elsewhere. But in this particular case, **Monty** owes **ambushed** an apology for misrepresenting (either deliberately or unintentionally) what the boy was saying, and **ambushed** owes everyone an apology for freaking out all over them. And you better believe I’m holding my breath until these apologies come… Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/119 "2003-09-22T21:14:18Z")
**Monty** , unfortunately it’s true. You are a wetched, wetched, wetched man. Weally. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033/120 "2003-09-22T21:38:27Z")
> [@](#): > > _DanielWithrow_ > **Monty** owes **ambushed** an apology for misrepresenting (either deliberately or unintentionally) what the boy was saying… Oh, but where’s the fun if our favorite little hornet-stirrer suddenly finds religion? The Boards would be sterile, barren places, devoid of these kinds of interesting meltdowns and tantrums. I gladly mix metaphors when I say “No, **Monty** , rage, _RAGE_ against the dying of the light.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monty-you-are-a-wretched-liar/203033.md?page=7)