# Monumental nitpick about the wrongness of His Cecilship on a totally peripheral issue **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [September 5, 2002, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monumental-nitpick-about-the-wrongness-of-his-cecilship-on-a-totally-peripheral-issue/127131 "2002-09-05T13:38:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monumental-nitpick-about-the-wrongness-of-his-cecilship-on-a-totally-peripheral-issue/127131/1 "2002-09-05T13:38:37Z")
[http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1\_095b.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_095b.html) > [@](#): > > It was the custom of the Middle Low Germans to sit around their fires roasting pig ribs on a spit or, as they preferred to call it, a “sper” (a word that survives in English as **“spar,” as in the rib supports of a ship)**. [Merriam-Webster online:](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary) > [@](#): > > 1spar > Pronunciation: 'spär > Function: noun > Etymology: Middle English sparre; akin to Old English spere spear – more at SPEAR > Date: 14th century > 1 : a stout pole > 2 a : a stout rounded wood or metal piece (as a mast, boom, gaff, or yard) used to support rigging b : any of the main longitudinal members of the wing of an airplane that carry the ribs An airplane wing is not a ship’s body. A “spar” is part of the mast-and-rigging assembly. [http://www.seagrant.wisc.edu/shipwrecks/glossary.html](http://www.seagrant.wisc.edu/shipwrecks/glossary.html) > [@](#): > > spar > A long, round stick of steel or wood, often tapered at one or both ends, and usually a part of a ship’s masts or rigging. [http://www.meetundersails.com/boats/glossary.htm](http://www.meetundersails.com/boats/glossary.htm) > [@](#): > > SPAR: Horizontal or vertical poles attached to the vessel for either support of the sails or accessories, etc. (see mast). ---
**Author:** ![Jerevan\_Somerville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@Jerevan\_Somerville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerevan_Somerville)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monumental-nitpick-about-the-wrongness-of-his-cecilship-on-a-totally-peripheral-issue/127131/2 "2002-09-05T15:32:41Z")
What I found interesting about this secondary issue of “spare ribs” is the bi-lingual redudancy involved – like calling a dish “rice pilav”. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2002, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monumental-nitpick-about-the-wrongness-of-his-cecilship-on-a-totally-peripheral-issue/127131/3 "2002-09-06T02:55:27Z")
Offered for your consideration. One of my best book purchases in the last year was _Chambers Dictionary of Etymology_. All of my cites in this thread are from that source. I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Perhaps both **DDG** and Cecil can be correct. First, you have to understand that there are three basic words involved, and they all relate to each other. There’s **spear** , **spit** and **spar**. In English, the oldest of the three words is _spear_. It appears before 800 and is spelled “spere.” It was a “lance, or a long thrusting weapon.” It was a cognate with **Old Saxon** _sper_. Old Saxon, in etymology circles refers to that Germanic language before 1100.There exists the possiblity that the Latin _sparus_, a hunting spear, is a cognate. Next to appear in English is **spit** which shows up before 1200. It is “a sharp-pointed rod on which meat is roasted.” Of course, one could and probably did roast things on one’s spear. But it seems that there existed a separate word before 1000 which has cognates with many a language and it had the basic spelling of “spit” or “spitz” or from the Indo-European “spidus.” Finally, we get to **spar** Which only appears “before 1325 as _sparr_ meaning a rafter, beam, stout pole.” It is cognate with Old Saxon _sparro_ =rafter. It doesn’t seem to be cognate with Old Saxon “sper.” It almost certainly goes back to Proto-Germanic _sparron_ which is related to OE “spere=spear.” “The sense of a stout pole used to support or extend a ship’s sail is found in 1640, but is first recorded in the compound _cant spar_ (1611), or perhaps _spar deck_ (1570).” So my take is that the sense of **spar** to mean a stout pole connected to a sail is rather later than the use of spar to mean a timber or rafter. As earlier ships might have been constructed of timbers laid next to each other, I can’t disrespect the notion that they could have been called spars at that point in in that sense. But there is little to back up Cecil’s vision of “MIddle Low Germans” (1100-1500) sitting around a fire using a “sper” to roast meats. Either he meant “Old Saxons” sitting around the fire(before 1100), or he meant “MIddle Low Germans” sitting around a fire after 1100, roasting meat on a “spiz.” ---
**Author:** ![cdhostage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@cdhostage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cdhostage)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2002, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monumental-nitpick-about-the-wrongness-of-his-cecilship-on-a-totally-peripheral-issue/127131/4 "2002-09-10T14:48:00Z")
prehensile what’s hensile? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2002, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monumental-nitpick-about-the-wrongness-of-his-cecilship-on-a-totally-peripheral-issue/127131/5 "2002-09-10T23:52:20Z")
IN the beginnning, there was _hendere_ in Latin, cognate with the Greek _chandanein_. To hold or cling. Related to _hedera_ ivy. Then you get _prae + hendere_ which becomes _pre_, going to _prehensus_, then to French _prehensile_. English borrowed the final result from French. About 1750 or so. ---
**Author:** ![\_etalhea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/779978/32.png) [@\_etalhea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_etalhea)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/monumental-nitpick-about-the-wrongness-of-his-cecilship-on-a-totally-peripheral-issue/127131/6 "2002-09-11T21:05:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samclem \* > \*\* > Then you get _prae + hendere_ which becomes _pre_, going to _prehensus_, then to French _prehensile_. > > \*\* ??? Then you get prae _from where_? How does prare/pre figure in? You’ve explained how hensile relates to clinging, what does prehensile mean? Before clinging? I’m confused.