# Moral Cowardice WARNING: DEEPLY DISTURBING AND OFFENSIVE. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 19, 2001, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105 "2001-07-19T21:41:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/81 "2001-07-20T20:25:38Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Anthracite \* > **I’m very reluctant to post what I would do to the people who tortured the cat.** _ I don’t want people to think any less of me than they already do. Some people think I’m evil, after all.\*\* You’re not evil, **Anthracite**. But the people who made that video certainly are. And here I was about to create a Pit thread about so-called abstract “art”. That stuff is just an annoyance. This stuff is truly evil. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/82 "2001-07-20T20:55:26Z")
…But here goes: First: Why be outraged? Simple. These …_Persons_… have consciously, and with malice aforethought, violated a deeply held value of society. Specifically: Cruel torture of an innocent is utterly beyond the pale. Second: Why incarcerate? That’s how we show, as a society, that we will not tolerate a particular behavior. Last: Why incarcerate for a _really long fucking time_? Because these fucks need some time for a really good head-shrinking. They callously caused cruel torment, and totally unmoved by the pain and terror of their subject, continued on for more than a quarter hour. Their lack of empathy for a fellow being, even if it was “merely an animal”, indicates, to my satisfaction, a dangerous level of sociopathy. I eat meat, and am not _excessively_ concerned by that fact, as I’m aware that there are controls in place to minimize the suffering of the animals I eat. I’d like to see those controls be stronger and better enforced, but I’m not _too_ disturbed. Every hunter I’ve ever known has always placed a great deal of emphasis on making a ‘clean’ kill. I know someone who works at a local slaughterhouse; his job is to kill the cattle. I like him, he and the slaughterhouse do a clean job of their work (I’ve been there, and seen him at work. He’s good.) But I’ve _never_ met anyone who would defend in any way the torture of an animal. I hope never to meet anyone of that stripe in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Mythos45](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/848f3c/32.png) [@Mythos45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mythos45)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/83 "2001-07-20T21:39:09Z")
It appears that myself, Bad Hat, and obfusciatrist are the only ones who don’t advoate some sort of gross bodily harm of execution for these men, as SpaceGhost, Mhyrr21, MLC, Anthracite (via implication) etc. have done. Does this mean we’re animal-torturing, kill-crazed, cat-slaughter apologists? Absolutely not. I do not go around deliberatly killing animals. Personally I’m not a vegetarian, nor have I ever considered its merits. I do not hunt, though I plan to one of these days (mmmmm, venison). I am not overly concerned with how much the cow who’s steak I’m about to enjoy suffered. This is simply becase we as a race are meant to eat animals to keep ourselves alive. That cow is merely a tool for us to use to fuel ourselves. However, it was just a cat! As obfusciatrist said, it’s suffering is not unimportant, just much less important than a human’s. That needs to be kept in mind. A cat is not sentient! We cannot elevate the life of a cat to eqaulity with a humans. If I hit a dog with my car, am I guilty of vehicular manslaughter? Absolutely not. Because it was just a dog! Or in his case, a cat. Yes, the two killers are apparantly rather sadistic and disturbed. However, at most, a sentence of 3 months in prison seems appropriate, as well as 1000 or so hours of community service. Now, if they aquired the cat by theft, they’d also have to answer for that. My point is, animals are indeed less important that people, by a very large stretch. ---
**Author:** ![Lady\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f1d935/32.png) [@Lady\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lady_Ice)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/84 "2001-07-20T21:39:51Z")
I’m not going to even say what I would like to do to these sick fucks. There are people who could put it so much more elegantly than I. However, they aren’t the only sick ones out there. Yesterday in Berlin, performance artist Wolfgang Flatz dropped a bloody, headless cow from a helicopter. Before the cow was dropped, he hung naked and bleeding with his arms spread cross like from a crane. While playing industrial music in the background. As a result, he’s being sued by a 13 year old girl who claims it wasn’t art, it was only meant to shock people. The city courts were asked to intervene beforehand but they said they couldn’t stop the performance. ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/85 "2001-07-20T22:08:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* > \*\*I think I’m going to throw up… \*\* As long as you do it on artwork that you consider ‘banal’ ---
**Author:** ![coosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@coosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coosa)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/86 "2001-07-20T22:28:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mythos45 \* > \*\*However, it was just a cat! As obfusciatrist said, it’s suffering is not unimportant, just much less important than a human’s. That needs to be kept in mind. A cat is not sentient! We cannot elevate the life of a cat to eqaulity with a humans. If I hit a dog with my car, am I guilty of vehicular manslaughter? Absolutely not. Because it was just a dog! Or in his case, a cat. Yes, the two killers are apparantly rather sadistic and disturbed. However, at most, a sentence of 3 months in prison seems appropriate, as well as 1000 or so hours of community service. Now, if they aquired the cat by theft, they’d also have to answer for that. My point is, animals are indeed less important that people, by a very large stretch. \*\* Because you don’t consider a cat ‘sentient’ (I might argue with you on that, but not here), does that mean it doesn’t suffer and feel pain just as you do? No, I don’t think a cat can learn to program a computer, but I bet that while it is suffering, it feels the pain just as intensely as you would in the same situation. What some of you don’t seem to understand is that this is not about whether or not a cat was killed, it is the NATURE of that death that is so appalling. Can you not see the difference between someone accidentally hitting a dog or cat with their car, and someone deliberately torturing an animal to death? By all means, let’s give these young gentlemen a mere slap on the wrist for this offense. What do you suppose 3 months in jail will teach them? That other living creatures feel pain just as they do? Will they learn compassion? Will they suddenly develop empathy for their fellow living creatures? No, all they will learn is to be more careful and not get caught. “Art” was simply an excuse for some sick motherfuckers to callously use the agony of another living creature to make themselves famous. For those of you who haven’t gotten the message yet, this is _psychopathic behavior_. These ‘people’ lack the ability to grasp that anything outside of themselves has real existence. Obviously they thought that this was, in some way, acceptable behavior. Do you suppose that, if it weren’t for fear of REAL punishment, they might have used a human baby? It would certainly have gotten more attention, wouldn’t it? But they played it safe and used a cat, because cats are worthless creatures not protected by strict laws with severe consequences. But let’s just turn them back loose into the world in a few months, undoubtedly angry over their punishment. And when they throw a baby against a wall because it won’t stop crying, or torch some homeless guy, THEN we will get upset and do something about it. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/87 "2001-07-20T22:38:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mythos45 \* > It appears that myself, Bad Hat, and obfusciatrist are the only ones who don’t advoate some sort of gross bodily harm of execution for these men, as SpaceGhost, **Mhyrr21,** MLC, Anthracite (via implication) etc. have done. [OT] I understand the temptation to put an “h” in my screen name; there’s an “h” in the actual word that it’s derived from. That said, if you’re going to mangle my name by adding one, _add it in the right frickin place._ [/OT] Now then, I’d also like to adress intersection between your statement and reality. Or, more accurately, the complete lack thereof. In fact, looking back, I don’t think I even mentioned my thoughts on their punishment at all. But if you want my thoughts, here they are: Given the legal chance, I would gladly pummel this man into a stupor. However, I am a law-abiding citizen, and would like to remain so–nor do I feel that I should have any legal right to retribution. > [@](#): > > This is simply becase we as a race are meant to eat animals to keep ourselves alive. That cow is merely a tool for us to use to fuel ourselves. Despite having been vegetarian from birth, I don’t really have anything against human consumption of meat, as long as it’s done where I don’t have to smell it. That said, you’ve just won the Stupidest Thing I’ve Read Today Award[sup]TM[/sup]. > [@](#): > > However, at most, a sentence of 3 months in prison seems appropriate, as well as 1000 or so hours of community service. 3 months and some community service? Why not just slap him on the wrist and send him on his way with a Tootsie Roll? At least that’d rot his teeth. The fucker’s time should be measured in years. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/88 "2001-07-20T22:57:41Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Bad Hat \* > \*\* Ritual animal sacrifices are as old as the hills, and it sounds like that cat had a terrible final seventeen minutes, but its hard to say it was a waste of life when it has provoked such an intense reaction from all of us. It doesn’t sound much worse than being crushed in half by a car, or digesting alive for a couple of days in the belly of a big ass snake, or starving to death over the course of a coupel of weeks because your owner doesn’t want you anymore and dumps you in an already overpopulated cat dumping park. Shit, I look at the way most people die and I prey that I will only suffer for about seventeen minutes._\* You think that having your skin peeled off for 17 minutes is even comparable to having your back broken and an almost assured immediate death, or being suffocated and _then_ digested in the belly of a snake? (and that is how it goes, by the way) Alright, so tell me. Would you rather starve to death, or be skinned alive? I think you would choose starvation far, far before you would choose the latter. I would have to agree with **coosa** on this, it’s not the fact that a cat was killed in this, it is the nature of the death that we are appalled at. I don’t think some of you quite understand that. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/89 "2001-07-20T22:58:46Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Bad Hat \* > \*\* Ritual animal sacrifices are as old as the hills, and it sounds like that cat had a terrible final seventeen minutes, but its hard to say it was a waste of life when it has provoked such an intense reaction from all of us. It doesn’t sound much worse than being crushed in half by a car, or digesting alive for a couple of days in the belly of a big ass snake, or starving to death over the course of a coupel of weeks because your owner doesn’t want you anymore and dumps you in an already overpopulated cat dumping park. Shit, I look at the way most people die and I prey that I will only suffer for about seventeen minutes._\* You think that having your skin peeled off for 17 minutes is even comparable to having your back broken and an almost assured immediate death, or being suffocated and _then_ digested in the belly of a snake? (and that is how it goes, by the way) Alright, so tell me. Would you rather starve to death, or be skinned alive? I think you would choose starvation far, far before you would choose the latter. I would have to agree with **coosa** on this, it’s not the fact that a cat was killed in this, it is the nature of the death that we are appalled at. I don’t think some of you quite understand that. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/90 "2001-07-20T23:00:13Z")
Oooopss!!! Will a kind, sweet, alarmingly attractive Mod please delete the first of the duplicate posts??? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/91 "2001-07-20T23:17:09Z")
Dear Missing-_My_-Point-Boy: The threads I quoted were not actual thread titles so far as I know. The intent was to convey the content of the horrible topics covered all the time on this board without the moderators warning us our sensibilities may be damaged. You no how many times I’ve accidentally wandered into a circle-jerk, isn’t poster-x the greatest thing since cottage cheese thread? Those damage _my_ delicate sensibilities and I want the moderators to start protecting. Now, I don’t think we will be able to come to an agreement on how long the jail sentence should be for this action, but do note that I have no problem with a jail sentence. However, I do not wish bodily harm on these people. I have a feeling that most of you react with horror (properly) every time some spy is found and people come out advocating their torture and death for treason (in which they likely caused the deaths of real live people). Yet, put a cat in harms way and suddenly it is ok to at least fantasize about sticking pool cues up people’s asses. Yes, cats feel pain. Yes, that pain is real. No, that pain is not as significant as the pain of another human. Yes, if I had come upon these two in the act of skinning the cat, I likely would have beat them with a stick until they stopped. No, they should not now, as punishment, be beaten with sticks. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/92 "2001-07-20T23:27:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Anthracite \* > > **I’m very reluctant to post what I would do to the people who tortured the cat.** _ I don’t want people to think any less of me than they already do. Some people think I’m evil, after all.\*\* > > You’re not evil, **Anthracite**. But the people who made that video certainly are.\*\* Thank you **jab1**. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/93 "2001-07-20T23:33:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mythos45 \* > \*\*It appears that myself, Bad Hat, and obfusciatrist are the only ones who don’t advoate some sort of gross bodily harm of execution for these men, as SpaceGhost, Mhyrr21, MLC, Anthracite (via implication) etc. have done. > \*\* Yeah, I know…I’m sorry I’m still in implication mode, but I’m now having trouble deciding. I thought about some things from the late Roman Empire, but they were too kind. My dog-eared book on the Spanish Inquisition was full of the same old boring stuff. I had thought of them being drawn-and-quartered by 4-wheel drive monster trucks in a stadium setting, but that seems…I don’t know, so _gauche_, does it not? I don’t know what I will finally post… ---
**Author:** ![skaffen\_amiskaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d26b3c/32.png) [@skaffen\_amiskaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skaffen_amiskaw)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/94 "2001-07-20T23:39:24Z")
i’m not going to say this isn’t art: just reading this thread shows it evokes strong emotions in people, and in my opinion, the evocation of strong emotions (either negative or positve) is what art should do. but if this is art or not does not matter. what matters is that this is sick and sickening. fine, freedom of artistic expression, but you don’t actually have to skin a cat. you could fake the video! (i truly hope they did) basically, i hope this is a hoax. if its isn’t, elaborate, tiger-baiting punishments are too good for them. i think simply marking them with distinctive brand marks, clothes and/or tattoos and forcing them to live among mentally well balanced, cat-loving people would work wonders. while the police turned a conspicous blind eye to act perpetrated upon them. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/95 "2001-07-20T23:40:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by obfusciatrist \* > Oh, and the title change for this thread is just namby-pamby bullshit. > > This thread is no more disturbing or offensive than a half dozen pits threads that show up each week. “Mom kills five kids in bathtub!” I don’t recall any weepy moderators warning of potential offense. “Marine rapes Okinawan girl” survived without annotation. > > But if a kitty cat gets killed, suddenly we need to be warned of the evil of man. I think for me, it is because an animal is a “lower” creature, in that they are basically in our control. NO, I am not saying that cats are lower and less important, but that they are not as powerful as we are. WE are in charge of them, in a way, we have a responsibility to them. They don’t have our powers of reasoning and speaking and talking with us. They don’t set out to maliciously harm us-they’re just simple creatures who are helpless in many ways. And to deliberately kill an animal-something that never did anything, that is helpless and all that-really really disgusts me. Besides, I REALLY love cats. I have four of my own, and let me tell you, Noel, Misty, Buffy and Gypsy are all getting extra hugs and kisses tonight. (BTW, Snopes has yet to debunk it…) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/96 "2001-07-20T23:46:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mythos45 \* > > However, it was just a cat! As obfusciatrist said, it’s suffering is not unimportant, just much less important than a human’s. You know, my cats are more important to me than many humans. Fuck you. > [@](#): > > That needs to be kept in mind. A cat is not sentient! I’ll keep that in mind. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Yes, the two killers are apparantly rather sadistic and disturbed. So was Dahmer. > [@](#): > > However, at most, a sentence of 3 months in prison seems appropriate, as well as 1000 or so hours of community service. Yeah, then when they get out, and maybe start on humans? > [@](#): > > Now, if they aquired the cat by theft, they’d also have to answer for that. My point is, animals are indeed less important that people, by a very large stretch. It’s not about how important the victim is. It is about inflicting pain on a being that cannot fight back. An INNOCENT victim. Just for chucks. How fucking sick can you get? ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2001, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/97 "2001-07-20T23:59:17Z")
> [@](#): > > You know, my cats are more important to me than many humans. Fuck you. If so, that is pretty damn scary, and I feel sorry for you. So, if you were in the position of choosing between the life of one of your cats and that of a complete stranger you would choose the cat? That’s fucked up. > [@](#): > > Yeah, then when they get out, and maybe start on humans? It’s a nice sentiment. But for the most part we do not get to punish people for acts not yet committed. Even when considering recidivism, we usually only get to consider known recidivism (past crimes) rather than likely recidivism (based on statistical analysis of people who commit such crimes). But, alas, I forget, there is no such thing as cruel, unusual, or excessive punishment when it is something furry that is harmed. However, Guinastasia, I do agree that it is because they were targeting the weaker and innocent that they need to be punished. Because if that is their only criteria then there really is no difference (for them) between a cat, a child, and many adults. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2001, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/98 "2001-07-21T00:01:29Z")
And now, much to everybody’s chagrin I’m sure, I concede the argument as I have a weekend trip and won’t be able to further defend my position. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2001, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/99 "2001-07-21T00:11:09Z")
You know what? I probably would. It is sad, I know, but my cats are my babies, my children. ---
**Author:** ![Mythos45](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/848f3c/32.png) [@Mythos45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mythos45)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2001, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105/100 "2001-07-21T00:41:59Z")
As in, you advocate long prison terms for these two because of the possblility that in the future they may kill a human? Sorry, that doesn’t fly in the United States. And Guinastasia, if you hold the life of one of your cats higher than that of a sentient human being, well, you have some serious issues. Leastwise, I hope I’m never in a position where someone like you has to choose between my life and that of an animal. By the way, I have 3 cats myself (among other pets), but never have I thought of them as children. That concept is very unsettling. Why should the manner in which the crime was carried out have so much bearing on the sentence? Justice doesn’t, or shouldn’t, work that way. Cruelty to animals is cruelty to animals. I’m assuming none of you have had to do community service, but I live with someone who has, and 1000 hours (That’s 41 and 2/3 days straight, at 8 hours a day that takes 125 days to work off)of picking up trash and cleaning up shit at the dog pound (I realize these two criminals shouldn’t do service near animals) is nothing to take lightly, nor is 1/4 year spent in a prison. And Myrr, sorry about the mangle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-cowardice-warning-deeply-disturbing-and-offensive/73105.md?page=6)