# Moral crusaders strike again! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 14, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231 "2003-03-14T01:49:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![panmarblic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@panmarblic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panmarblic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/1 "2003-03-14T01:49:49Z")
[Read this article](http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/news/0303/13partialbirth.html) [or this one](http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/13/senate.abortion/index.html) To summarize it, the senate just cleared a bill that would ban partial birth abortions. This issue has been debated to so many death that I don’t think about it anymore. What pisses me off, though, is how the proponents of this bill defended their decisions: > [@](#): > > “This is a heinous act. It is immoral. It is wrong. It is simply something a civilized society should not tolerate,” Sen. Mike DeWine, R-Ohio, said at a news conference after the vote. and > [@](#): > > “Partial-birth abortion is an abhorrent procedure that offends human dignity, and I commend the Senate for passing legislation to ban it,” Bush said in a prepared statement. “Today’s action is an important step toward building a culture of life in America.” “immoral”? “heinous”? “a culture of life”? WTF? I have long accepted the fact people will see things differently, and we all want others to see things our way. But I hate how conservatives portray liberal thoughts as somehow wrong or immoral, as if liberals are less human. Look, I respect your opinions, and the least you can do is to respect me. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/2 "2003-03-14T02:16:22Z")
The Supreme Court will strike it down, but what a sleazy, scummy thing for the republicans to try to do. ---
**Author:** ![Heloise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e36b37/32.png) [@Heloise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heloise)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/3 "2003-03-14T02:29:51Z")
I don’t know. From what I have heard and read, partial birth abortion is something that can be and has been done right up to the birth of the child. In one case, as a woman was in labor, she had “psychological trauma” and changed her mind about having the baby, and it was sufficient for abortion to take place. I disagree with this. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/4 "2003-03-14T02:36:30Z")
Slippery slope. I don’t think liberal thought is being attacked so much as this particular procedure. The biggest problem is that it seems to be a stepping stone to saying that all abortion should be done away with with the same rationale in mind. Listen, I’m as liberal as they come, and I’m even a little skeeved out by “partial birth abortions”. In fact, abortion in general doesn’t sit well with me, but I’m all for a woman’s right to choose what to do with her own body. I don’t have all the facts on “partial birth abortions”. Is it ever a procedure where if it isn’t performed the mother and the baby will die? If so, well, shit. That sucks but if it has to be done … I just don’t want to be the one to make that decision. I’ll be honest and say that most of the info I have on this comes straight from my best friend who is about three steps right of Pat Buchanan, so I approach the conservative views with skepticism to begin with … but I do consider them. ---
**Author:** ![panmarblic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@panmarblic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panmarblic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/5 "2003-03-14T02:57:09Z")
Abortion isn’t really the issue here, but it is alarming in that the bill may be a stepping stone for outlawing abortion altogether. (For the record, I’m pro-choice.) What bothers me is the way Republicans justify this bill by calling it progress toward civility. Their reasons for supporting the bill are so subjective and vague, it’s approaching moral dictatorship. (“What I’m advocating is right because I’m moral.”) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/6 "2003-03-14T03:11:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Heloise \* > \*\*I don’t know. From what I have heard and read, partial birth abortion is something that can be and has been done right up to the birth of the child. In one case, as a woman was in labor, she had “psychological trauma” and changed her mind about having the baby, and it was sufficient for abortion to take place. I disagree with this. \*\* Do you have a cite for that? Otherwise, fuck off. :rolleyes: I believe this procedure is ONLY done in case of an emergency. And for the record, there is no such thing as “partial birth abortion” as far as medical terms go. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/7 "2003-03-14T03:18:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Do you have a cite for that? Otherwise, fuck off. > :rolleyes: > \*\* Jesus, Guin … take a pill. Obviously she doesn’t have a cite as indicated by the phrase “I don’t know.” Do you have a cite? No, as indicated by the phrase “I believe.” Fuck off? Relax. ---
**Author:** ![fishcrawford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/85f322/32.png) [@fishcrawford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fishcrawford)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/8 "2003-03-14T03:51:16Z")
Here you go What is Partial-Birth Abortion? Partial-Birth Abortion is a procedure in which the abortionist pulls a living baby feet-first out of the womb and into the birth canal (vagina), except for the head, which the abortionist purposely keeps lodged just inside the cervix (the opening to the womb). The abortionist punctures the base of the baby’s skull with a surgical instrument, such as a long surgical scissors or a pointed hollow metal tube called a trochar. He then inserts a catheter (tube) into the wound, and removes the baby’s brain with a powerful suction machine. This causes the skull to collapse, after which the abortionist completes the delivery of the now-dead baby. What is the Partial-Birth Abortion act? The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act would ban performance of a partial-birth abortion except if it were necessary to the save a mother’s life. The bill defines partial-birth abortion as an abortion in which “the person performing the abortion deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother,” and then kills the baby. The bill would permit use of the procedure if “necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself.” Are Partial-Birth Abortions Common? According to Ron Fitzsimmons, executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers (1997), and other sources, it appears that partial-birth abortions are performed 3,000 to 5,000 times annually. (Even those numbers may be low.) Based on published interviews with numerous abortionists, and interviews with Fitzsimmons in 1997, the “vast majority” of partial-birth abortions are performed in the fifth and sixth months of pregnancy, on healthy babies of healthy mothers. Why is it called “Partial-Birth”? Under state laws, a “live birth” occurs when a baby is entirely expelled from the mother and shows any signs of life, however briefly – regardless of whether the baby is “viable,” i.e., developed enough to be sustained outside the womb with neo-natal medical assistance. Even at 4½ months (20 weeks), perinatologists say that if a baby is expelled or removed completely from the uterus, she will usually gasp for breath and sometimes survive for hours, even though lung development is usually insufficient to permit successful sustained respiration until 23 weeks. Thus, the term “partial-birth” is perfectly descriptive. [http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/pbafacts.html](http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/pbafacts.html) ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/9 "2003-03-14T03:54:21Z")
I’d say that’s a bit of a biased cite/site. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/10 "2003-03-14T03:55:35Z")
I’m with **Guin** , if you’re going to cite an anedote as imflammatory as what **Heloise** posted, then back it the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![Heloise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e36b37/32.png) [@Heloise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heloise)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/11 "2003-03-14T04:00:07Z")
Wow. Something so nasty from someone I once had respect for. I’m still looking up some of the information, because some of it was from radio and was a few years ago, so it may take awhile. But, in the case of being only for emergencies, that’s a lie. Here are a few cites while I keep looking for my other information: [Cite](http://suewidemark.netfirms.com/shafer2.htm) > [@](#): > > …This one particular lady didn’t want the abortion. She had this Downs Syndrome baby, she was unmarried, her boyfriend didn’t want the baby, and her parents didn’t want the baby. She cried the whole three days she was in there. So we did her first to get her over with. We brought her in, prepped her, started an I.V. of Valium to calm her down. We did not use a general anesthesia and knock her out. …We brought the ultrasound machine in and hooked it up to her stomach. > > And the baby was kicking his feet, hanging there, moving his little fingers and his little arms. I couldn’t believe – I don’t know what I thought killed it in three days, but he was moving and I kept watching that baby move. And I kept thinking to myself, this isn’t happening and I thought I was going to pass out. And I kept telling myself, I’m a professional, I can handle this, you know, this is right, this is supposed to be, and I supposed to handle this, I’m a nurse. He then took a pair of scissors and jammed them into the back of the baby’s head. And the baby jerked out, like a startle reflex, like a baby does if you throw him up a little bit and he jumps. And then the baby was real rigid. The doctor then opened up the scissors to make a hole. He took a high powered suction machine with a catheter and stuck it in that hole and suctioned the baby’s brains out. And the baby went completely limp. [Look under Flawed Testimony](http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1996/vo12no08/vo12no08_partialbirth.htm) > [@](#): > > Dr. Pamela Smith, Director of Medical Education, Dept. of Ob-Gyn at Mt. Sinai Hospital in Chicago, has stated: “There are absolutely no obstetrical situations encountered in this country which would require partial- birth abortion to preserve the life or health of the mother.” And she adds two more risks: cervical incompetence in subsequent pregnancies caused by three days of forceful dilation of the cervix, and uterine rupture caused by rotating the fetus in the womb. Joseph DeCook, Fellow, Am. Col., Ob/Gyn, founder of PHACT (Physicians Ad Hoc Coalition for Truth), stated: “There is no literature that testifies to the safety of partial birth abortions. It’s a maverick procedure devised by maverick doctors who wish to deliver a dead fetus. Such abortions could lead to infection causing sterility.” Also, “Drawing out the baby in breech position is a very dangerous procedure and could tear the uterus. Such a ruptured uterus could cause the mother to bleed to death in ten minutes.”…“The puncturing of the child’s skull produces bone shards that could puncture the uterus.” (Congressman Charles Canady (R-FL), 7/23). From: [One more cite](http://abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_18.asp#But%20isn%E2%80%99t%20it%20the%20safest?) I did speak with someone who mentioned that using psychological trauma has been an excuse since 1967. Not that I think you’d want to look at the cites or speak with her, because they are pro-life, but you can look at [abortionfacts.com](http://abortionfacts.com) or you can look up Doe vs. Bolton, a 1973 ruling that states you can use mental health as a reason to terminate a pregnancy. If you want the info on the woman I spoke with, you can email me. ---
**Author:** ![Heloise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e36b37/32.png) [@Heloise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heloise)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/12 "2003-03-14T04:02:06Z")
I meant to include a … from one of the quotes I did, sorry if it looks disjointed. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/13 "2003-03-14T04:02:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I’m with **Guin** , if you’re going to cite an anedote as imflammatory as what **Heloise** posted, then back it the fuck up. \*\* I didn’t find it imflammatory. It sounded like a side to the argument. Calling for a cite seems logical to me, but jumping her shit like that didn’t really seem too suave-bola. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/14 "2003-03-14T04:08:39Z")
When momcats have a litter of kittens, they are known to sniff and nudge and otherwise assess the newborns, and sometimes they decide for cat-reasons of their own that this or that one is not destined to be among the living; and she doesn’t clean off the membranes, and pushes it to one side, and nurses the others while that one dies. ::shrug:: If you want to mount a campaign to convince fertile women that they should not seek abortions (ever, or not except under extreme circumstances, or just not late in the 3rd trimester), be my guest. But for any given woman who nevertheless wishes an abortion, I don’t think you or I have any business denying her access to one. She’s the one closest to the situation, and the one who will live (comfortably or uncomfortably) with the results of her decision. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/15 "2003-03-14T04:47:31Z")
From the [Religious Tolerance](http://www.religioustolerance.org) website : > [@](#): > > Medical intervention to terminate pregnancies during the third trimester is quite rare. The Alan Guttmacher Institute estimates that 1% of all medical terminations of pregnancies are done at or after 21 weeks - (1994 data). & > [@](#): > > The most common justifications at that time are: > > - The fetus is dead. > - The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would place the woman’s life in severe danger. > - The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would grievously damage the woman’s health and/or disable her. > - The fetus is so malformed that it can never gain consciousness and will die shortly after birth. Many which fall into this category have developed hydrocephalus. > > In addition, some physicians violate their state Medical Association’s regulations and perform elective D&X procedures - primarily on women who are suicidally depressed. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/16 "2003-03-14T04:49:51Z")
Sorry **Heloise** -you’re right, that was uncalled for. I guess I’m just extremely skeptical. The majority of times I have heard have said that PBA is only done under extreme circumstances. I appologize. **fishcrawford** , that may be a bit biased. ---
**Author:** ![Heloise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e36b37/32.png) [@Heloise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heloise)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/17 "2003-03-14T05:15:19Z")
Thank you, **Guinastasia**. I’m a bit confused about your statement, though, > [@](#): > > The majority of times I have heard have said that PBA is only done under extreme circumstances. I appologize. The majority of times you have heard have said that…? Maybe I’m just reading it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/18 "2003-03-14T06:26:55Z")
Wow. I’ll admit that the very concept of partial birth abortions is completely new to me. Yes, this coming from a guy who lives in a country where abortion have been legal for more than 20 years. BUT, [not after the 21st week of pregnancy](http://www.minvws.nl/english/themes.html?folder=482), and indeed, the general practice is to not exceed 16 weeks. The PBA procedures as described here are horrible! I’m a very pro-choice guy, but there HAVE to be limits to what you’ll allow people (and doctors) to do. There is a VAST difference between terminating an undeveloped phoetus and sucking out the brain of a baby that’s about to be born. So, put me in the Republican camp for this once. I am not against abortions, but if procedures like these take place legally, then clearly the US legal framework with regard to abortions needs a lot of fine-tuning. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/19 "2003-03-14T07:41:28Z")
**Coldfire** , don’t believe the nonsense posted in this thread. **Heloise’s** cites are from anti-abortion propaganda websites with no credibility. Even the phrase “Partial birth abortion” is not a legitimate medical term. It’s just a political term cooked up by anti-abortion fanatics to try to demonize the procedure. It’s actually called an intact dialation and extraction (D and E). It’s performed only in circumstances where the fetus is already dead, is severely deformed or the mother’s health is in jeopardy. Virtually all D and E’s are performed in the _2nd trimester_. Only .02% of abortions are performed after 24 weeks, and those are only performed in the case of an extreme threat to the mother’s health. There are not any babies being killed as they are delivered, I assure you. That is a fantasy perpetrated by the pro-life movement. The first story posted by Heloise is complete bullshit. If you actually link to the cite, you will see that it is an anecdote told by one anti-abortion activist with absolutely no factual support. Don’t let yourself get suckered by the propaganda. [Here](http://www.wcla.org/articles/pba20.html) is some _real_ info on intact D and E’s to combat the horseshit. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231/20 "2003-03-14T08:30:33Z")
No offense, **Diogenes** - but your cite is a _pro_-abortion one. You can’t knock **Heloise** ’s cite for being slanted, and then provide a slanted one yourself. Now, if the procedures described are performed on a dead phoetus or in case of extreme danger to the mother’s health, I have no moral objections to them - even if the baby is fullgrown (although like Jack Batty said, I wouldn’t want to be the one to make the call, yikes). The question then is: why would such procedures be performed in the second trimester? I have read up on the procedures performed on phoetuses in the Netherlands (up to 21 weeks, as stated above), and no cite I found makes mention of the D&E procedure. It seems unnecessarily harsh, even if the “risk” of the phoetus being sentient is small. Is there a cite out there _without_ a pro or con slant that gives us reliable data on D&E procedures in terms of when they happen, and how often they happen to perfectly healthy phoetuses? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-crusaders-strike-again/161231.md?page=2)