# Moral Dilemma: Doing business where an employee has old pro-Nazi tattoos. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 6, 2008, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014 "2008-12-06T17:03:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/21 "2008-12-08T05:14:29Z")
I’d talk to the owner. No matter what the guy’s story, _showing_ the tattoos while he’s working is unacceptable. It’s no different than wearing a T-shirt with a swastika on it. The least he could do is wear some long sleeves, and if the manangement is comfortable with an employee who flashes racist tattoos at customers all day, then they’re not worth doing business with. I also think if that tats were really the product of youthful, and subsequently reformed stupidity that he would not be showing them openly at his place of employment. He’d either have gotten some cover-art done or would wear long sleeves. If the management/ownership tells you they aren’t bothered by it, or aren’t going to do anything about it, then I think you need to find a new shop. Ask yourself this: would you feel comfortable bringing a Jewish friend in there and extolling the virtues of the place if you knew the managemnt felt just fine about employees showing off their swastika tats. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/22 "2008-12-08T05:16:48Z")
> [@Auntbeast](#): > > "Hey, Mr. Store Owner, I just wanted to have a talk with you. You know I love your store and recommend my friends to it and I want to do my part to make sure you succeed. I’ve dealt with Mr. X on several occasions and boy, is he sharp as a tack, he really knows his stuff and is a pleasure to deal with. However, the other day I noticed he had his sleeved rolled up and noticed some tattoos that were visible. Now, I’m pretty sure they can be passed off as the ignorance of youth, since they were obviously quite old, but in the interest of customers less familiar with your fantastic shop, it might be best to have him keep those covered. He’s such a great guy and such a wonderful asset to your business, I’d hate for anyone to think less of him or the shop because of them. > > Please order me 3 more Custom II’s, one for this really cool chick I know online. > > Sincerely, > Tripler" > There ya go sugar. Not all southerners are bad. 🙂 And if they tell you they don’t give a shit about the guy’s tattoos? Also, what makes you so sure he’s a great guy? That’s not the first assumption I make about guys showing off Nazi skin art. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/23 "2008-12-08T05:23:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > At the very least, he deserves a chance to explain himself. > > Robert Byrd joined the KKK as a young man. In recent years, he’s considered by the Democratic party to be enough of an icon that he was worthy of election as President Pro-Tem of the Senate. I assume most readers would agree there’s ample evidence that Byrd has changed his views over the years… and fortunately for him, he (as far as we know) didn’t get any tattoos. But if he had, his conversion and repentence today would be just as sincere, and he’d be left with those remionders of views he now repudiates. > > So take the bull by the horns. “Excuse me. I’m sorry to ask a personal question, but I couldn’t help noticing those tattoos. And I feel I have to ask – are these views you still hold?” I don’t know - I mean, I agree that Byrd’s repentance was sincere, and he’s certainly fine proof that people can change. But, at the risk of sounding like (or being) a jerk, I’d suggest that, as vile and disgusting as the Klan is, the Nazis were far, far worse. The Klan was evil, and killed many innocent people. The Nazis were EVIL - they remain our touchstone for the word - and slaughtered innocents by the millions, turning Europe into a continent-sized nightmare. For someone to become a Nazi seems, to me, something much more profoundly screwed up than the (already) very screwed-up act of becoming a Klansman. In short - after a life of distinguished public service, I’d agree that one could be forgiven for joining the Klan as a foolish youth. But I’m not sure that becoming a neo-Nazi is ever forgivable. Of course, I never lived in an area where the Klan was active, and I _did_ have a Holocaust survivor for a Hebrew school teacher. And I’m certain that colors my opinion. Still, though, I think I may have a point. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/24 "2008-12-08T06:54:19Z")
If you want to express disapproval, something along **Auntbeast’s** lines (with a little less gee-I-think-your-store’s-wonderful) would be OK. Though I guess in that setting I personally wouldn’t say anything, unless I heard the guy ranting about minorities or humming the Horst Wessel song. If it was something the store owner was displaying as a sign of personal beliefs (like putting a Confederate flag up on the wall), I’d go elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Auntbeast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Auntbeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Auntbeast)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/25 "2008-12-08T07:13:21Z")
My statement was based on the OP’s assertion that he had previous dealings with the guy on several occasions and found him to be pretty much as I described. And all the gee-I-think-your-store-is-wonderful stuff was precisely because the OP is obviously much enamored with the store, the stock and the level of service he has experienced there. Hey, I believe that if you have something hard to say, you say the good things you can say too. If he makes sure he expresses to the owner his reaction and concerns, tempered with how great he thinks the store is, the owner, IMHO, is more likely to listen that to treat him like some jacked up dickface that wanders in like the rest of humanity and just tries to cause trouble. I don’t know how much tattoos cost to have done, redone or removed. But it does seem to me the man was wearing a long sleeve shirt, and obviously, usually does. It was during a moment of pushing up your shirtsleeves that they were revealed. Maybe it is my pollyanna outlook on folks that maybe, just maybe, stupid shit they do in their youth can be just that. In my happy world, there isn’t one person on the planet that has a Nazi tattoo that wasn’t drugged and dragged to a tattoo parlor and had it done while unconscious then summarily thrown on an island somewhere with no means to have it removed/redone and if allowed to join back on the mainland, was cast into such utter and abject poverty and aprobation they were unable to financially have it altered in any way, short of amputation. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/26 "2008-12-08T07:14:55Z")
I’d ask the guy directly and frankly. “Are those Nazi tats?” No profanity, no demeaning attitude or anything. I just would blurt it out without hesitating the moment I finished my 60 second gaze at them. My actions with respect to further business at the store would depend on his response. ---
**Author:** ![PotLuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@PotLuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PotLuck)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/27 "2008-12-08T17:05:46Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > A tattoo is an individual choice, not representative of the business itself. I’ve seen a few waitresses with tramp stamps, but it doesn’t mean that restaurants support the tramp stamp way of life. This guy clearly has (or had at one point) his own views, wrong as they may be, he’s entitled to them on a personal level. They aren’t indicative of the store owner, or the other employees, though. I disagree; a tattoo of a butterfly (for instance) on a woman’s lower back cannot fairly be compared to one of a swastika on a man’s forearm. I once walked out of a clothing store because an employee was wearing a [RaHoWa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RaHoWa_(band)) T-shirt. If an employer is cool with their employee expousing their love for a white supremacist band while dealing with their customers, then this black woman is not cool with patronizing their establishment (and presumes they’d prefer not to see me in there anyway). ---
**Author:** ![SkeptiJess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SkeptiJess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkeptiJess)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/28 "2008-12-08T18:24:06Z")
Immediate off-the-cuff joke response: “I would buy _anything_ from a man who looks like Sam Elliot.” Real response: “Ouch. I empathize with your confict.” Really, I dislike the Nazis as much as anyone. And, if you had heard the guy making pro-Nazi or white-supremist statements, I’d agree that you shouldn’t continue to do business with a store that would employ that type of person. But a tatoo? I don’t think that’s enough evidence that he really is a dirtbag. Faded tattoos are pretty easy to misinterpret. Maybe these tats were originally something completely different. Or, maybe they really were originally Nazi tats, but he no longer holds that philosophy. And, if that’s the case, he may have _chosen_ not to have them removed or covered. I went to school with a guy who had a lot of gang tattoos and I asked him once (knowing that he was no longer in that gang) why he didn’t have them removed. He said he kept them as a sort of penance – having been stupid enough to join the gang in the first place, then stupid enough to have himself permanently tattooed with the brand of the gang, he deserved to be judged for that stupidity when people saw them. I thought this was kind of dumb, really; but that was his considered opinion and it may be that your guy has come to a similar conclusion. So I vote with **Bear\_Nenno** , next time you go in there, ask the guy straight out if those were Nazi tattoos. And come back and tell us what he says – I’m sure I’m not the only one who’s curious. ---
**Author:** ![SkeptiJess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SkeptiJess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkeptiJess)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/29 "2008-12-08T18:28:06Z")
> [@Cajo](#): > > I once walked out of a clothing store because an employee was wearing a [RaHoWa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RaHoWa_(band)) T-shirt. If an employer is cool with their employee expousing their love for a white supremacist band while dealing with their customers, then this black woman is not cool with patronizing their establishment (and presumes they’d prefer not to see me in there anyway). Out of curiosity, did you let the management of the store know why you walked out? Because I never heard of RaHoWa, and wouldn’t know them from the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and I would have appreciated the heads-up that my employee was wearing such an inappropriate shirt. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/30 "2008-12-08T18:37:43Z")
Why is it a “moral dilemma”? If it offended you, don’t shop there and tell the manager why. If you don’t really give a shit and are just worried about not being PC for some reason or another, then do whatever. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/31 "2008-12-08T19:03:11Z")
> [@astro](#): > > What if a women was a superb retail department manager but had “I like rough trade and getting gang banged” inked on her forehead . Would you not buy socks and underwear from her? I don’t think that analogy quite hits it. I mean, hey, consenting adults and all that (although getting such tattooed on her _forehead_ would certainly display a great deal of, ah, dedication to the lifestyle). Nazi tattoos would be more like a woman with a tattoo that said “I want your Mom/wife/sister/daughter/_other_ women to be gang raped”. It’s not like the Nazis just sat around and persecuted _themselves_. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/32 "2008-12-08T20:05:43Z")
> [@supergoose](#): > > As a strong proponent of free speech Freedom of speech is great. Freedom to shop elsewhere is even better. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/33 "2008-12-08T20:14:18Z")
I’d say don’t worry about it. Do you need a complete dossier on every salesperson you do business with? “Do you want fries with that?” “It depends…how do you feel about Tibet?” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/34 "2008-12-08T21:55:26Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > It might not be a swastika. Could be a Buddhist Manji? Underneath a “the eagle from the German coat of arms?” Come on- is he supposed to be Siddhartha Goebbels? I probably wouldn’t shop there anymore, but I don’t think you’re ethically obliged to do that, **Tripler**. And I’d ask the boss in person or by phone rather than putting the guy on the spot or testing him. ---
**Author:** ![sugar\_and\_spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@sugar\_and\_spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugar_and_spice)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/35 "2008-12-08T21:56:22Z")
If you’re really dwelling on it then I say talk to the owner. You don’t have to decide up front if you’ll boycott the place, you can just say something like “Hey, you seem like the kind of business owner who is open to customer feedback, I wanted to give you some feedback.” Maybe he’ll offer an explanation or a course of action that will make you happy. Or maybe he’ll tell you to mind your own business, in which case, well, he’s helping you make up your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/36 "2008-12-09T00:56:28Z")
The most likely explanation is that the guy is pro-Nazi, and the owner is okay with it. Occam’s razor and all that. If the guy truly doesn’t want to openly be making pro-Nazi statements, he has a couple of simple and inexpensive options to avoid displaying the swastikas: 1. Get new tattoos to hide the old ones. 2. Keep his sleeves rolled down. The fact that he didn’t avail himself of either of these options shows that he’s perfectly happy to keep making the statements. People do stuff that they regret, but the action of showing the tattoos is not something that happened in the past. He is showing the tattoos in the present. The fact that he is permitted to show his tattoos at work shows that the owner is okay with him openly making these statements. I wouldn’t shop in a store that displayed Nazi symbology, whether on the wall or on an employee. Sorry, **Trip**. The fact that the tats were showing means that whoever is in charge of that shop is okay with the neo-Nazi stuff. ---
**Author:** ![PotLuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@PotLuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PotLuck)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/37 "2008-12-09T01:05:52Z")
> [@SkeptiJess](#): > > Out of curiosity, did you let the management of the store know why you walked out? Because I never heard of RaHoWa, and wouldn’t know them from the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and I would have appreciated the heads-up that my employee was wearing such an inappropriate shirt. This happened several years ago when I wasn’t the kickass woman I am now, so all I could do was turn on my heel and scurry out of there, freaked out by one of very few instances of outright, in-your-face racism I’d encountered as an adult. I didn’t even think about asking to see a manager until after the fact, but didn’t go back. I figured, this 22YO man felt comfortable wearing a black T-shirt with white lettering spelling out “RaHoWa” with the band’s logo as he sold clothing, so either the store sells that shirt or he likes it so much that he’d rather wear it than what his employer sells and the management is okay with that. But you’re completely right; the band isn’t exactly mainstream and the manager could have been completely in the dark and potentially mortified (“They sing about _white supremacy_?!”. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/38 "2008-12-09T05:15:31Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > Sorry, **Trip**. The fact that the tats were showing means that whoever is in charge of that shop is okay with the neo-Nazi stuff. Or it means that he’s known the guy for quite a while and doesn’t think about it anymore. It’s entirely possible that both the guy with the tattoos and the boss just don’t really worry about them, if they’re that old. They may have stopped thinking about them, and when he rolled up his sleeves to work on whatever he was doing, neither of them gave it a second thought. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/39 "2008-12-09T05:30:16Z")
He could be Ed Norton in _American History X_ post-epiphany, for all we know - which would still make him a convicted murderer, admittedly. Still, I think it’s unfair to make assumptions without giving the guy (or his boss, or whoever) a chance to explain. Plus, that way, if it turns out (as is likely) that he _is_ [still] a Neo-Nazi, you won’t wonder whether you stopped shopping there for no good reason. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014/40 "2008-12-09T13:21:25Z")
Besides, we all want to know what he says when you ask him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-doing-business-where-an-employee-has-old-pro-nazi-tattoos/476014.md?page=3)