# Moral dilemma - gambling related
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [June 15, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359 "2010-06-15T22:26:34Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)
#### Post date: [June 17, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359/41 "2010-06-17T22:30:42Z")
> [@Leaffan](#):
>
> Not true at all. Very likely the clerk at Tesco would be docked £100. The casino money would not be missed by anyone. At all. Ever.
I bet _someone_ reviews the tapes. Now whether the casino’s policy towards accidental negligent loss is the same as the one at Tesco, I have no idea, but I expect **Dead Badger** ’s windfall _will_ be noticed.
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### Author:  [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)
#### Post date: [June 17, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359/42 "2010-06-17T23:41:07Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#):
>
> I bet _someone_ reviews the tapes. Now whether the casino’s policy towards accidental negligent loss is the same as the one at Tesco, I have no idea, but I expect **Dead Badger** ’s windfall _will_ be noticed.
If a casino has 10 tables, it has 10 cameras (one for each table) running at all times—Do you actually think a casino hires someone (or 10 someones) to review each tables video for each night???
Unless something is amiss, those tapes are re-recorded over each night, until something happens to give the casino reason to take a closer look at a specific recording…
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### Author:  [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359/43 "2010-06-18T01:17:07Z")
> [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](#):
>
> What if a store had a sale, and then threw out people who bought too many of the best sale items? I just don’t get how they can offer the same deal to everyone, and then say that people who are able to take advantage of their deal aren’t allowed to. And don’t get me wrong, I know that you have to win quite a lot for a casino to ban you. But it seems the principle of the matter is sort of a WTF deal.
I have heard of stores restricting the purchase of sale items, but the principle there is to be fair to other customers, I think. That particular situation is not analogous, anyway, because the store chooses to offer items for sale in order to make more money than they would otherwise.
> [@Giraffe](#):
>
> Now, certain proponents of absolute morality will tell you that stealing from Hitler is just as bad as stealing from Mother Teresa, stealing one penny is no different than stealing ten million dollars, etc. These people are stupid.
It’s an elegant argument, and I don’t want to turn the thread into a general debate about ethics (for one thing, I’m sure that has been done to death on here already), but I’m not sure I agree. The simplest counter-argument is to ask how you know when it is wrong - the “how many books make a library” argument.
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#):
>
> The croupier was just giving you a free ride on purpose. Whether that’s due to a weird rule or he was comping you, it doesn’t matter.
I think that is extremely unlikely. What’s in it for the dealer (unless they want to lose their job pretty quickly)?
> [@Mr\_Shine](#):
>
> I’m not going to tell you what to do, that’s up to you. However all the people saying that it’s an evil casino blah blah blah are 100% wrong. The casino offered a fair and reasonable service and got cheated. This is exactly the same as if you went to the supermarket and paid £100, but the clerk serving you got distracted and handed you back your money with your receipt. If you feel that walking out of Tesco with a free trolleyload of goods is A-OK then feel free to keep this £100.
I think I agree with this. On the other hand, I have now banked the money (perhaps temporarily) and am still undecided.
> [@Leaffan](#):
>
> Not true at all. Very likely the clerk at Tesco would be docked £100.
Funnily enough, I used to work on a till at Tesco, and I was once conned out of £20 by a customer. It was not docked from my wages (helped no doubt by the fact that the same person had just accomplished the same thing at another supermarket down the road. They radioed us, too late). The point still stands that it is very unlikely this mistake will be docked from the dealer’s wages unless the tape is reviewed, which is very unlikely in itself.
> [@Grumman](#):
>
> Gambling it away is stupid, and is no better than what you _already_ did, using the casino’s money to buy another spin of the roulette wheel.
That would be the case if I gambled it, won, and kept the winnings. What I meant was, gambling it until I lost it all, thus putting the money back in the “right” place. But it does seem stupid to me - why shouldn’t I just be up-front about doing that, if that is what I want to do?
> [@Grumman](#):
>
> Donating it to charity is morally no better than just keeping it, since you’d only be doing it because it’s not your money that you’re giving away.
Agreed, summed this up nicely.
> [@Mr\_Shine](#):
>
> I bet _someone_ reviews the tapes. Now whether the casino’s policy towards accidental negligent loss is the same as the one at Tesco, I have no idea, but I expect **Dead Badger** ’s windfall _will_ be noticed.
I’m flattered to be confused with **Dead Badger** , but I’m his compatriot (or “fellow roadkill”, as we were once described, but in fact I chose my username on a quite different basis) **Dead Cat**. For reading his posts, it appears he knows more than me about almost everything, so I take this as a compliment.
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### Author:  [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359/44 "2010-06-18T01:20:15Z")
I’ve seen it happen many times. Mistakes in the player’s favor should be caught at the time it happens by the dealer. If the casino sees it later on film, the dealer gets reprimanded. If you had pointed out the mistake, the dealer would still get reprimanded.
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### Author:  [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359/45 "2010-06-18T02:09:17Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#):
>
> I’m not going to tell you what to do, that’s up to you. However all the people saying that it’s an evil casino blah blah blah are 100% wrong. The casino offered a fair and reasonable service and got cheated. This is exactly the same as if you went to the supermarket and paid £100, but the clerk serving you got distracted and handed you back your money with your receipt. If you feel that walking out of Tesco with a free trolleyload of goods is A-OK then feel free to keep this £100.
Having thought about this a bit more, the two situations are actually not quite the same. In the case of taking free goods from Tesco due to an error in payment, the company has actually made a physical loss, which costs them something. In my case, I have not caused the casino to make a loss, they have just failed to win. The situation for them is the same as if I had never made that particular bet in the first place. True, I then won a subsequent bet, but this was a separate event.
I think that on balance, I’m going to let greed get the better of me and keep the money, based on the balance of the arguments in this thread. I hope some people found the exercise as interesting as I did!
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### Author:  [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359/46 "2010-06-18T04:41:52Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#):
>
> Having thought about this a bit more, the two situations are actually not quite the same. In the case of taking free goods from Tesco due to an error in payment, the company has actually made a physical loss, which costs them something. In my case, I have not caused the casino to make a loss, they have just failed to win. The situation for them is the same as if I had never made that particular bet in the first place. True, I then won a subsequent bet, but this was a separate event.
>
> I think that on balance, I’m going to let greed get the better of me and keep the money, based on the balance of the arguments in this thread. I hope some people found the exercise as interesting as I did!
You owe us all a beer. When do we collect?
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### Author:  [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2010, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359/47 "2010-06-18T06:04:08Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#):
>
> Not too concerned about my conscience, but may give it to charity anyway because that’s a “nice” thing to do. But my argument in post #3 still applies - why should the charity get it rather than the casino?
If someone got fired or disciplined due to the mistake, returning the money isn’t going to save them. If not, then by returning the money you’re only hurting these people. You go to turn it in then they’ll review tape (which can be a bitch in and of itself), question the dealer on why they screwed up. Question the floor as to why they didn’t catch it and weren’t watching. Question **YOU** as to why you didn’t return the money right away. You’re likely to cause more trouble than you solve.
It’s just more trouble than it’s worth. Keep the money.
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### Author:  [@Cyningablod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyningablod)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2010, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359/48 "2010-06-18T07:06:08Z")
**Dead Cat** ,
I didn’t vote, because I honestly have ambivalent feelings here. I can see the logic in both arguments for and against most of the options you’ve posited.
But what I _do_ want to say, is this:
I applaud you for even pondering the question and seeking others’ input. The fact that you bothered to post this, and are concerned enough to be open to suggestions, indicates that you are, whether you realize it or not, a pretty ethical person.
Nowadays, it seems, even acknowledging a moral grey area, is something of a victory.
Hope it all works out in your favor.
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### Author:  [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2010, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359/49 "2010-06-18T09:43:50Z")
I consider this to be equivalent to scamming, and I don’t agree that you’re justified in keeping the money just because it was from a casino. Casino’s may give bad odds, but they don’t cheat you, and they don’t force anyone to gamble. If the dealer had made a mistake causing your 100 to be removed before the first spin I guarantee you wouldn’t have just shrugged and said “I gambled that the dealer wouldn’t make a mistake, and lost”. This is straight up angleshooting imo.
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### Author:  [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2010, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359/50 "2010-06-18T09:58:39Z")
Keep it without a moment’s hesitation. The casino is going to miss it a lot less than I am.
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### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2010, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359/51 "2010-06-18T10:17:59Z")
> [@Cyberhwk](#):
>
> If someone got fired or disciplined due to the mistake, returning the money isn’t going to save them. If not, then by returning the money you’re only hurting these people. You go to turn it in then they’ll review tape (which can be a bitch in and of itself), question the dealer on why they screwed up. Question the floor as to why they didn’t catch it and weren’t watching. Question **YOU** as to why you didn’t return the money right away. You’re likely to cause more trouble than you solve.
>
> It’s just more trouble than it’s worth. Keep the money.
This is my opinion as well. Giving it back will likely result in them noticing something was wrong, and thus actually have negative consequences. The only proper way to give it back would be to gamble it away.
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### Author:  [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2010, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359/52 "2010-06-18T10:58:34Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#):
>
> Having thought about this a bit more, the two situations are actually not quite the same. In the case of taking free goods from Tesco due to an error in payment, the company has actually made a physical loss, which costs them something. In my case, I have not caused the casino to make a loss, they have just failed to win.
I really do not see how this makes a difference. 18/37 times the casino will make a loss, balanced by the 18.5/37 they make as profit. Although you personally didn’t effect anybody else’s “luck”, by letting a losing bet ride you have messed with their probability model and stolen the £100 chip that is the casinos rightful property.
Having said that, although I voted “Tell the Manager” in the poll, I think I agree with the people saying that what’s done is done and will only cause trouble so keep the money.
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### Author:  [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2010, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359/53 "2010-06-18T12:37:58Z")
> [@Cyberhwk](#):
>
> If someone got fired or disciplined due to the mistake, returning the money isn’t going to save them. If not, then by returning the money you’re only hurting these people. You go to turn it in then they’ll review tape (which can be a bitch in and of itself), question the dealer on why they screwed up. Question the floor as to why they didn’t catch it and weren’t watching. Question **YOU** as to why you didn’t return the money right away. You’re likely to cause more trouble than you solve.
>
> It’s just more trouble than it’s worth. Keep the money.
I think this is the strongest argument so far in favour of keeping the money (even if the possibility of personal harm to me is discounted) - and from a professional, too! I daresay the casino will win it’s money back sooner or later (or indeed, I could argue, already has done - I’m not under the illusion that I am ahead over the last few years that I have gambled there).
> [@Cyningablod](#):
>
> Hope it all works out in your favor.
Thanks, I hope so too!
> [@Gustav](#):
>
> I consider this to be equivalent to scamming, and I don’t agree that you’re justified in keeping the money just because it was from a casino. Casino’s may give bad odds, but they don’t cheat you, and they don’t force anyone to gamble. If the dealer had made a mistake causing your 100 to be removed before the first spin I guarantee you wouldn’t have just shrugged and said “I gambled that the dealer wouldn’t make a mistake, and lost”. This is straight up angleshooting imo.
I agree with this post except the first clause and last sentence. I never intended to scam the casino, and I think that nearly everyone in the same situation would have acted similarly. I just can’t see anyone pointing out the error to the dealer at the time - if you think you would have done, you’re probably way too righteous to be in a casino in the first place :).
> [@Mr\_Shine](#):
>
> I really do not see how this makes a difference. 18/37 times the casino will make a loss, balanced by the 18.5/37 they make as profit. Although you personally didn’t effect anybody else’s “luck”, by letting a losing bet ride you have messed with their probability model and stolen the £100 chip that is the casinos rightful property.
Consider these four situations: you do not go shopping; you go shopping and obtain £100 of free goods due to an error; you do not place a bet; you place a losing bet and get it back due to an error. Comparing the first two cases, in one case the shop is no better or worse off than it was before (except for the lost profit), whereas in the other the shop has lost physical goods that have a cost to the shop. Comparing the second two cases, they are the same (except for the lost profit). Granted, the profit margin is different in each case, but I do not believe that is morally relevant. This is why I feel that the analogy is not quite sound.
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### Author:  [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2010, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359/54 "2010-06-18T13:12:53Z")
OK, I disagree. But lets say you went to Tesco at 21:30 on a Saturday as they were about to close, and bought nothing but goods that had a Sell By date of today. Again you accidentally receive your £100 back. Is this morally similar to you?
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### Author:  [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemma-gambling-related/543359/55 "2010-06-18T14:59:05Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#):
>
> I agree with this post except the first clause and last sentence. I never intended to scam the casino, and I think that nearly everyone in the same situation would have acted similarly. I just can’t see anyone pointing out the error to the dealer at the time - if you think you would have done, you’re probably way too righteous to be in a casino in the first place :).
You may not have planned it from the get-go, but when the dealer handed you the £200 you knew there had been a mistake, and you chose not to alert them about the error because it worked out in your favor. If the error had been in your disfavor you would certainly have spoken up. I’m having a hard time not seeing this as angleshooting.
The fact that the victim in this case is a casino is pure justification, and morally irrelevant. Casinos don’t cheat their customers. They provide a clearly laid out service that people voluntarily pay for, and they follow their own rules to the letter, even when they lose. They’re a service provider like any other, and leaving their premises with £200 that you _know_ do not rightfully belong to you is clearly immoral.
Uh… imo.
And yes, I would have told the dealer he made a mistake.
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