# ''Moral dilemnas' in fiction that weren't a dilemna to you (Open Spoilers re My Sister's Keeper) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 10, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079 "2012-01-10T20:56:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/21 "2012-01-11T03:42:57Z")
> [@raspberry\_hunter](#): > > Ha! I remember this book. Only dimly, but weren’t the parents _supposed_ to be the bad guys? I thought the moral dilemma was that given that yes, the parents are totally lame, does the “created” sister still have any moral responsibility towards the sick sister? > > I agree with you about the ending – a total copout. > > I think this about people having affairs in fiction, sometimes – in real life, I understand how and why it can happen, but in fiction sometimes I’m all “eh?” The example I am thinking of right now is in Jhumpa Lahiri’s book _The Namesake_, which is notable because other than that particular plotline I loved the book, and I loooove Lahiri’s work in general like crazy. Anyhow, there’s a plotline where protagonist marries a woman, and it’s the kind of thing where they got married because everyone expected it rather than because they truly loved each other, and that part was done really well. > > And then the wife goes off and has an affair kind of randomly, for no real reason, and I was all “really? Get a life! Get a hobby or something!” Except that her affair wasn’t random at all. She went back to the man she had been in love with before she met Gogol, the one her family would never have accepted. She gave up love for the right marriage, as did Gogol when he gave up the blonde girl after she didn’t understand the funeral. The whole plot point was that giving up love for cultural expectations doesn’t work once you move out of the environment that holds those expectations. They were never really happy together, and her affair set him free. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/22 "2012-01-11T06:13:40Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > It’s sad that people don’t understand the moral dilemma here.☹ > > _Because killing the Joker makes you as bad has he is._ This is a specific point of **The Dark Knight Returns** and is why the Joker has to kill himself, for instance. I don’t think it’s so much that people don’t understand that point. I think it’s that most people recognize it as utter bullshit. The Joker has killed hundreds and hundreds of people, many in extraordinarily horrible ways, because he thinks its funny. This is literally nothing you could possibly do to the Joker that will make you “as bad as him,” because anything you could think of to do, no matter how brutal or depraved, he’s already done to a dozen people. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/23 "2012-01-11T06:38:55Z")
> [@grude](#): > > This is the big one for me too, I HATE fiction where the “hero” agonizes over killing a mass murdering maniac who can’t be stopped. I keep thinking kill the fucker! Its immoral to leave him alive! > > The Dark Knight comes to mind, how many thousands of people would Batman let die before putting a bullet in the Joker’s head? Agreed. The real world argument that you _shouldn’t_ kill criminals is after all largely based on the fact that you can stop them; real world people don’t escape from prison over and over like supervillains do. Carlos the Jackal and Charles Manson are still in prison and staying there, so there’s no need to kill them; if they lived in Comicbookland they’d have escaped at least a dozen times each since their original convictions. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/24 "2012-01-11T11:45:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Agreed. The real world argument that you _shouldn’t_ kill criminals is after all largely based on the fact that you can stop them; real world people don’t escape from prison over and over like supervillains do. Carlos the Jackal and Charles Manson are still in prison and staying there, so there’s no need to kill them; if they lived in Comicbookland they’d have escaped at least a dozen times each since their original convictions. And it’s totally ridiculous, plot-wise, that supervillains like the Joker are still alive, even if Batman refuses to kill them. SOME superhero out of the dozens in the DC universe would get fed up and put a bullet through the Joker’s head at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/25 "2012-01-11T12:11:03Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > And it’s totally ridiculous, plot-wise, that supervillains like the Joker are still alive, even if Batman refuses to kill them. SOME superhero out of the dozens in the DC universe would get fed up and put a bullet through the Joker’s head at some point. Or some supervillain that the Joker had pissed off. ---
**Author:** ![Teufelblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@Teufelblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teufelblitz)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/26 "2012-01-11T12:23:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Carlos the Jackal and Charles Manson are still in prison and staying there, so there’s no need to kill them; I emphatically disagree with this. I don’t understand why we keep them alive and healthy at all. We could take the thousands of dollars we are throwing down the crapper to house them and feed families worth saving. A bit more on topic, I have been watching Supernatural from the beginning lately. We started at episode one and are now up to season 4. [spoiler] Sam needs to get over the fact that he has demon blood in him and embrace his own identity. All this hand wringing over whether he will become evil is unnecessary and hurts his ability to fight for good. If he gets posessed again or whatever, it’s not him acting anymore. I question the notion that the use of his powers can lead him further and further toward the dark. He knew what he was getting into when he started using them. The powers are like the arsenal they keep in the trunk of their car. A gun can be given to you by the most infernal bastard in creation, but if the gun is only used in a righteous manner, the source doesn’t matter. My point is that he needs to pay attention to his actions more than where his powers come from. Just focus on trying to be just and battling evil. The rest will work itself out. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/27 "2012-01-11T12:31:34Z")
> [@Teufelblitz](#): > > IA bit more on topic, I have been watching Supernatural from the beginning lately. We started at episode one and are now up to season 4. > > [spoiler] Sam needs to get over the fact that he has demon blood in him and embrace his own identity. All this hand wringing over whether he will become evil is unnecessary and hurts his ability to fight for good. > > If he gets posessed again or whatever, it’s not him acting anymore. > > I question the notion that the use of his powers can lead him further and further toward the dark. He knew what he was getting into when he started using them. The powers are like the arsenal they keep in the trunk of their car. A gun can be given to you by the most infernal bastard in creation, but if the gun is only used in a righteous manner, the source doesn’t matter. > > My point is that he needs to pay attention to his actions more than where his powers come from. Just focus on trying to be just and battling evil. The rest will work itself out. [/spoiler] ROFL! Sorry man, but he winds up doing just that and it doesn’t work out very well… ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/28 "2012-01-11T13:59:59Z")
I agree with the killing of the supervillain thing, but then I also feel the stories would become unaccountably dark…except in the recent Batman series, you may as well just kill the joker because that series of movies is so dark, anyway. What I mean to say is, contractual immortality applies to both sides of the equation - as long as Batman is not going around killing the villains then the villains are not killing Batman, just tormenting him, etc. Although Bane is supposed to be in the next movie and I certainly know what he did, and what he tried to do, to Batman (I read the book for once, many years ago. Most. Depressing. Ending. Ever.) But the idea of locking up a psychopath like Bane instead of just killing him…agreed fully. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/29 "2012-01-11T14:16:31Z")
> [@Teufelblitz](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > Carlos the Jackal and Charles Manson are still in prison and staying there, so there’s no need to kill them; > > I emphatically disagree with this. I don’t understand why we keep them alive and healthy at all. We could take the thousands of dollars we are throwing down the crapper to house them and feed families worth saving. An entirely separate argument. “We killed them to save money” isn’t at all the same as “we killed them to stop them from killing other people”. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/30 "2012-01-11T16:21:34Z")
The science fiction short story “The Cold Equations” by Tom Godwin is supposed to be a big “dilemma” story, but the main character really has no choice. I was still very annoyed when a dramatized version changed things to avoid this dilemma. (Sorry, I don’t know how to box spoilers, so I can’t explain further than that." Something else that bugged me about _My Sister’s Keeper._ The brother is an arsonist. He almost killed somebody! (Or maybe he did, it’s been a while since I’ve read the book.) He gets a stern talking-to from his father, and turns into a police detective who’s a great person. _Seriously?_ (Yes, his little sister died, maybe that helped turn him to good, but still.) ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/31 "2012-01-11T16:35:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > An entirely separate argument. “We killed them to save money” isn’t at all the same as “we killed them to stop them from killing other people”. Except if keeping them alive is using money that could be used to save others, then, yes, they were killing those others by virtue of being so expensive to keep alive. **Dendarii Dame** : Except [_The Cold Equations_ cheated.](http://home.tiac.net/~cri_d/cri/1999/coldeq.html) Also, you include spoilers by using the spoiler tag, like this: Spoiler here ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/32 "2012-01-11T16:37:19Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > The science fiction short story “The Cold Equations” by Tom Godwin is supposed to be a big “dilemma” story, but the main character really has no choice. I was still very annoyed when a dramatized version changed things to avoid this dilemma. (Sorry, I don’t know how to box spoilers, so I can’t explain further than that." > > Something else that bugged me about _My Sister’s Keeper._ The brother is an arsonist. He almost killed somebody! (Or maybe he did, it’s been a while since I’ve read the book.) He gets a stern talking-to from his father, and turns into a police detective who’s a great person. _Seriously?_ (Yes, his little sister died, maybe that helped turn him to good, but still.) Yeah, the ending bit the big one all the way. I am also with you on the Cold Equations. But I have very little sympathy for stupid teenagers. I can truthfully say I really didn’t do anything monumentally stupid as a teen. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/33 "2012-01-11T16:40:13Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > The science fiction short story “The Cold Equations” by Tom Godwin is supposed to be a big “dilemma” story, but the main character really has no choice. I was still very annoyed when a dramatized version changed things to avoid this dilemma. (Sorry, I don’t know how to box spoilers, so I can’t explain further than that." It is the cultural assumptions that make “The Cold Equations” so weird today. I read it for a high school English class in 1992 and the whole class thought it was ridiculous that everyone involved was ready to regretfully space a male stow away, but _o noes how can we let a girl die?!??_ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/34 "2012-01-11T17:11:43Z")
Oddly the one recent film where there was a huge moral issue was presented as if there was none. Avatar. Is it really OK for 10’s of billions of humans to die so that the alien species can maintain it’s holy site? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/35 "2012-01-11T17:21:42Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Yeah, the ending bit the big one all the way. I am also with you on the Cold Equations. But I have very little sympathy for stupid teenagers. . Stupid? She wasn’t stupid. The only defense is a unlocked, unguarded door, with a “Keep out!” sign. He does not know about the lethal consequences. The pilot doesn’t do a pre-flight check, something done routinely since the dawn of flight. As pointed out in Derleth’s cite- the owners of that craft were criminally negligent. They knew full well stowaways were common. Yet they took no precautions- no guard, no locked door, no pre-flight check, no warning lights, and the sign isn’t even explicit. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/36 "2012-01-11T17:30:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Stupid? She wasn’t stupid. The only defense is a unlocked, unguarded door, with a “Keep out!” sign. He does not know about the lethal consequences. The pilot doesn’t do a pre-flight check, something done routinely since the dawn of flight. As pointed out in Derleth’s cite- the owners of that craft were criminally negligent. They knew full well stowaways were common. Yet they took no precautions- no guard, no locked door, no pre-flight check, no warning lights, and the sign isn’t even explicit. Also… why would the craft be big enough for anyone to hide in in the first place? People go on about how trying to look for ‘extra mass’ is missing the point; most of the craft is extra mass! ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/37 "2012-01-11T17:32:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Stupid? She wasn’t stupid. The only defense is a unlocked, unguarded door, with a “Keep out!” sign. He does not know about the lethal consequences. The pilot doesn’t do a pre-flight check, something done routinely since the dawn of flight. As pointed out in Derleth’s cite- the owners of that craft were criminally negligent. They knew full well stowaways were common. Yet they took no precautions- no guard, no locked door, no pre-flight check, no warning lights, and the sign isn’t even explicit. I didn’t remember all that - and yes, they should have had much better precautions, and it does make them criminally negligent - but I still don’t forgive her or excuse her. It is still a stupid thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/38 "2012-01-11T18:13:13Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I thought of this because I bought _My Sister’s Keeper_ on my Kindle the other day. I really despised the end of this book, but I liked the book itself, so I decided I could just read up to the end and then stop. The author, Jodi Picoult, basically only writes books like that to pull your heartstrings. _Picture Perfect_, about an amnesiac stuck between her prior husband and the man she falls in love with after losing her memory. _Keeping Faith_, a custody battle over a little girl who says she sees God. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Oddly the one recent film where there was a huge moral issue was presented as if there was none. Avatar. Is it really OK for 10’s of billions of humans to die so that the alien species can maintain it’s holy site? I’m kinda with that. None of the Navi had to die. But the story was basically Pocahontas, and we were supposed to feel bad as North Americans because we did the same thing. Except the Navi had people who understand human culture and would negotiate a treaty that wouldn’t fuck them over. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/39 "2012-01-11T18:53:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Oddly the one recent film where there was a huge moral issue was presented as if there was none. Avatar. Is it really OK for 10’s of billions of humans to die so that the alien species can maintain it’s holy site? I missed any inference that tens of billions of humans were going to die unless Pandora was mined. Didn’t the company just want money from selling Unobtainium? ---
**Author:** ![Teufelblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@Teufelblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teufelblitz)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/40 "2012-01-11T18:58:41Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > ROFL! Sorry man, but he winds up doing just that and it doesn’t work out very well… What I am saying is that his own weakness of spirit does not equate to a moral failure on the part of the weapon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079.md?page=3)