# ''Moral dilemnas' in fiction that weren't a dilemna to you (Open Spoilers re My Sister's Keeper) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 10, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079 "2012-01-10T20:56:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/41 "2012-01-11T19:02:12Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I missed any inference that tens of billions of humans were going to die unless Pandora was mined. Didn’t the company just want money from selling Unobtainium? The ending states that the aliens returned _“to their dying planet.”_ ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/42 "2012-01-11T20:48:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > People understand it fine. They just find that idea fatuous and self-centered. > > If a mass-murderer is getting ready to kill a bunch of innocent people, I could maintain my moral purity and be a better person than the mass-murderer. Or I could act to let all those innocent people live. If I prioritize my moral purity over the lives of innocent people, I’m kind of monstrous. > > Maybe killing the Joker makes me as bad as he is, whatever, fine. I’ll be as bad as the Joker if that’s what it takes to let all the innocent people live. Wouldn’t killing the Joker eliminate a very very popular villian for Batman, though? The writers have to have _some reason_ to keep him around (escapes, Batman “can’t kill”, etc). ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/43 "2012-01-11T21:07:32Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Wouldn’t killing the Joker eliminate a very very popular villian for Batman, though? The writers have to have _some reason_ to keep him around (escapes, Batman “can’t kill”, etc). This is why comic book universes should be wiped clean every 5-10 years or so. Like the movies do. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/44 "2012-01-11T22:27:11Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > This is why comic book universes should be wiped clean every 5-10 years or so. Like the movies do. Amen. Or, they could just write them as occuring in real time instead of comic-book time and have new heroes take over as Batman every once in a while. ---
**Author:** ![Sri\_Theo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Sri\_Theo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sri_Theo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/45 "2012-01-11T23:27:42Z")
> [@grude](#): > > In Avatar The Last Airbender TV show Aang agonizes over killing the Firelord, even to the point of avoiding facing him. Eventually by chance another option becomes available, but to be clear this guy was waging a genocidal war on the entire world! He had already wiped out 2 “ethnic” groups and was going to personally burn alive an entire nation before Aang stopped him. Aang is able to communicate with the past incarnations of the Avatar for advice, and all of them advise him to kill the fuck! I’m going to disagree with this one. First the advice the other avatars gave him wasn’t to kill, although it sounds like it. Its intentionally ambiguous. But most importantly the entire series was about spirituality! He doesn’t kill Orzi not for Orzi’s sake but because he doesn’t want to become a murderer. And he successfully finds an alternative. Its not like it came of nowhere either, Zuko brought it up very early in the third season. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/46 "2012-01-12T00:03:31Z")
Almost anytime we are supposed to sympathize with someone who is cheating on their spouse and having a moral crisis over it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/47 "2012-01-12T00:08:09Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Wouldn’t killing the Joker eliminate a very very popular villian for Batman, though? The writers have to have _some reason_ to keep him around (escapes, Batman “can’t kill”, etc). Totally. Which is why it’d be great to have a plausible in-story reason for keeping him alive. I’m just saying the reason given isn’t particularly compelling. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/48 "2012-01-12T00:13:47Z")
I was recently listening to the _This American Life_ episode “[Act V](http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/218/act-v)”, which is about a group of prisoners that had been working on a production of _Hamlet_. In act one of the episode, a prisoner called Big Hutch explains why he was not impressed by the title character’s dilemma. He doesn’t understand why Hamlet doesn’t just go ahead and kill Claudius already. I have to admit he has a point. While someone might understandably feel that a revenge killing is not morally justified, this doesn’t appear to be the case with Hamlet. He’s is willing to stab someone he _thinks_ is Claudius and he’s happy to send Rosencrantz and Guildenstern to their deaths, so it doesn’t seem like he sincerely has a moral problem with killing people. His stated reasons for delaying the killing don’t seem very compelling either. Big Hutch suggests a reworked plot with a modern setting where the main character has clearer reasons for hesitating to commit a revenge killing. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/49 "2012-01-12T02:15:03Z")
> [@Sri\_Theo](#): > > I’m going to disagree with this one. First the advice the other avatars gave him wasn’t to kill, although it sounds like it. Its intentionally ambiguous. > > But most importantly the entire series was about spirituality! He doesn’t kill Orzi not for Orzi’s sake but because he doesn’t want to become a murderer. And he successfully finds an alternative. Its not like it came of nowhere either, Zuko brought it up very early in the third season. I seem to remember them advising Aang that his duty is to do what is right by the world, that his moral purity is less important than saving the world. Also Aang is attacked by Ozai and engaged in a no holds barred magical duel to the death, at that point it wouldn’t even be murder it would be self defense. And also Aang directly caused the deaths of many fire nation soldiers, most noticeably when he hulked out at the end of the first season, that was a fleet of dozens of ships he was smashing around and sending tidal waves at. It is no more murder than killing Ozai though by any legal or moral definition. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/50 "2012-01-12T02:42:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think it’s so much that people don’t understand that point. I think it’s that most people recognize it as utter bullshit. The Joker has killed hundreds and hundreds of people, many in extraordinarily horrible ways, because he thinks its funny. This is literally nothing you could possibly do to the Joker that will make you “as bad as him,” because anything you could think of to do, no matter how brutal or depraved, he’s already done to a dozen people. That’s the thing though. Batman is really, really fucked in the head. He’s as cuckoo as the Joker, really (and for similar reasons), except that where the Joker strives for total randomness and no control, Batman really wants to be in charge of EVERYTHING. He’s the ultimate control freak. If “The Reign of Emperor Batman” was a thing, it would pretty much be 1984, except everyone would also be implanted with GPS trackers and ocular cameras. And he knows he has to set _some_ hard boundaries for himself, because otherwise he’d let himself turn into some nazi asshole monstrosity killing people over jaywalking like the Punisher. Which is why his relation to the Joker is really complicated. He desperately _wants_ to murder that motherfucker. But he can’t let himself. But Joker is the only person in the world to really “get” Batman, just as Batman is the only guy in the world to really “get” Joker. So he doesn’t want to kill him, because in a weird dysfunctional way, Joker is his only friend, or the only guy he can trust. Sure, he can trust him to murder dozens of people in a zany scheme involving exploding marzipan kittens, but \*dependably \*so ! Finally, there’s also the notion that, if he manages to save the Joker from the traumatic One Bad Day that turned him into the Joker to begin with, then there’s hope that some day Batman can fix himself too and go back to being Bruce Wayne instead of it just being his fake public persona. As soon as you realize that Bats is as irretrievably maniac as the Joker is, it kinda starts to make sense. That being said, all of that isn’t really at the forefront in the movie, and I agree that in that particular version of Bats, it doesn’t really make much sense for him not to drop J. from a skyscraper. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/51 "2012-01-12T03:00:57Z")
I suppose all this falls under the general heading of [Family Unfriendly Aesop.](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FamilyUnfriendlyAesop) See also [Values Dissonance.](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ValuesDissonance) ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/52 "2012-01-12T03:59:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Oddly the one recent film where there was a huge moral issue was presented as if there was none. Avatar. Is it really OK for 10’s of billions of humans to die so that the alien species can maintain it’s holy site? It was not a mere holy site as the phrase is used in real life. Their holy sites were important in a way that a church or shrine only claims to be. You should be asking whether it’s okay to maim a sapient super-organism to solve your own problems. Even if not for that, why should humanity’s self-inflicted suffering give them the right to run roughshod over everyone else in search of a cure? If a drunk driver crashes his car, does that give him the right to break into your house to call an ambulance? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/53 "2012-01-12T04:49:55Z")
No, but if a drunk driver crashes his car, stumbles to your front door, asks you if he can use your phone to call an ambulance and you turn him down because fuck him that’s why ; you can’t really blame him for being ever so slightly miffed at you. (I actually haven’t seen _Avatar_, but I would surmise humans ask the cat people to share or trade their McGuffin before opting to murder them all ?) ---
**Author:** ![FlyByNight512](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@FlyByNight512](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyByNight512)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/54 "2012-01-12T05:06:13Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m sure I’ve seen innumerable “moral dilemma” moments in TV shows and movies where the obvious solution was to put a bullet in the bad guy’s head, but offhand I can only think of a few instances where this occurs. This is one of the many reasons why I love Firefly. [spoiler]Bad guy after being captured and offered a way out: “I will hunt you down. You will live in fear looking over your shoulder for me, and the last thing you feel will be my blade.” Captain Mal: “Damn.” _kicks the bad guy into the ship’s engine_[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/55 "2012-01-12T05:16:52Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > (I actually haven’t seen _Avatar_, but I would surmise humans ask the cat people to share or trade their McGuffin before opting to murder them all ?) They try to trade for it, yes. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/56 "2012-01-12T15:03:08Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > … (I actually haven’t seen _Avatar_ … sigh. the way the story goes, it appears the ecosystem itself is part of a superorganism living on the planet. a better analogy would be the drunk asking for part of your liver or something. it’s quite interesting actually, this dismissal of an entire alien ecology based on one’s prejudice is exactly part\* of what the movie is about. “_They’re just trees!_” - because seriously the story is plain and beside the point. the movie is known for its stunning visuals and technology. disparaging the story when you have not even seen it must be some kind of backlash as a result of its box office success. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/57 "2012-01-12T15:06:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They try to trade for it, yes. _“We don’t have anything they want.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/58 "2012-01-12T15:12:47Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > No, but if a drunk driver crashes his car, stumbles to your front door, asks you if he can use your phone to call an ambulance and you turn him down because fuck him that’s why ; you can’t really blame him for being ever so slightly miffed at you. > > (I actually haven’t seen _Avatar_, but I would surmise humans ask the cat people to share or trade their McGuffin before opting to murder them all ?) > [@DrDeth](#): > > They try to trade for it, yes. But they don’t bother to go look for some other deposit that isn’t right under a Na’vi settlement. They want that deposit, because it’s big and close. And this is more like a drunk driver wanting to disassemble your house in order to build a phone, to strain the analogy some. Oh, and he wants to desecrate the graves of your ancestors and blow up your church too. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/59 "2012-01-12T17:30:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But they don’t bother to go look for some other deposit that isn’t right under a Na’vi settlement. They want that deposit, because it’s big and close. . I got the impression that was not by chance, the deposit was under the world tree because the unobtainium was what the world wide network was built out of. Its what allowed the to me obviously artificial worldwide network of “trees”. ---
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079/60 "2012-01-12T17:34:35Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > Except that her affair wasn’t random at all. She went back to the man she had been in love with before she met Gogol, the one her family would never have accepted. She gave up love for the right marriage, as did Gogol when he gave up the blonde girl after she didn’t understand the funeral. The whole plot point was that giving up love for cultural expectations doesn’t work once you move out of the environment that holds those expectations. They were never really happy together, and her affair set him free. Yeeeees, I understand it as a plot/thematic point (which is why I mentioned that she got married because everyone expected it and not for love, sorry if that wasn’t clear; it was supposed to be a moral dilemma for just that love-vs-cultural-expectations reason) but it wasn’t her ex-fiance, wasn’t that some other guy? I think this was just a random old boyfriend. But I have to say I never did like Mouse, as she seemed to me to have no idea what she wanted and just to be drifting along thinking she wanted one thing and then another, and the affair just seemed more of the same to me, so maybe I’m just biased against her. But anyway, for something we can all mock, how about the affair in _Bridges of Madison County_? The single funniest thing my mom has ever said was when she read that book: “All my friends loved it, so I read it. I didn’t like it. I thought it was stupid that she had an affair. I wanted to say to her, if you’re so bored, why don’t you just go to the library?” Ha, that reminds me of another moral dilemma my mom cut straight through. When she watched _Miss Saigon_, my mom was all, “It was really stupid for Kim to kill herself. She should just have hit the guy up for alimony.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-dilemnas-in-fiction-that-werent-a-dilemna-to-you-open-spoilers-re-my-sisters-keeper/609079.md?page=4)