# Moral / Ethical Dilemma Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2018, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-ethical-dilemma-question/811005 "2018-03-22T02:36:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-ethical-dilemma-question/811005/21 "2018-03-28T01:41:54Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > That is a badly formulated question. You introduce completly irrelevant Details, and leave out all the important context. > > […] I agree but also disagree. I think I understand which details you’d call irrelevant and can imagine important context I’d like added, so that’s agreement. But the formulation of the question is really much like real life. There will be details that should be irrelevant, but which will still gnaw at us. We will have unconscious biases encouraging us to choose one way or the other, and most of us will wind up introducing details partly on the basis of how they interact with our unconscious biases. Some of us will conclude that obviously we should point out the grading error, and some of us will conclude that of course we’re not going to do that, and we’ll use the same facts to get to those poles, we’ll just use them differently. In fact, if you distill the OP down to the truly relevant details, it would read “You incorrectly receive a passing test grade. Do you point out the error?” Truly, this would not have been an engaging enough posting for many of us to engage with. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-ethical-dilemma-question/811005/22 "2018-03-28T01:53:32Z")
how can you be sure that the ‘mistake’ is not part of the test - and what you do when you discover said mistake is as important as the rest? If you are 1 point away from failing - you have bigger questions to answer answer anyway and likely need to have “another semester” in training - ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-ethical-dilemma-question/811005/23 "2018-03-28T15:13:02Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > But the formulation of the question is really much like real life. It’s not meant to be real life. If it was real life, the OP would/ could give the context. It’s meant (as I alluded to) the typical “Ethical Dilemma” introduced in beginning philosophy class, which is terribly harmful, because it doesn’t teach ethics. It teaches the harmful, dangerous idea that in real life: we have absolute knowledge and precision Action (the trolley Problem only works if that is true) we only have two choices Because These badly-formulated, not-questioned, “Ethical Dilemmas” are so wide-spread, People start to believe that in real life, too, we will have absolute knowledge and perfect precision, and that there will always be only two choices. Which leads to things like “arming teachers to shoot back” because you will know who the shooter is in real life, and the only Options are to kill the shooter or be killed. It leads to shutting down looking for other alternatives, because there are only two. (There have been psychological tests done on that). > [@](#): > > There will be details that should be irrelevant, but which will still gnaw at us. We will have unconscious biases encouraging us to choose one way or the other, and most of us will wind up introducing details partly on the basis of how they interact with our unconscious biases. But the question isn’t presented as “Help me figure out how to find the ethical solution”, so we would Point out what’s lacking and why that’s important. It’s presented as classical Dilemma “What would you do”. > [@](#): > > Some of us will conclude that obviously we should point out the grading error, and some of us will conclude that of course we’re not going to do that, and we’ll use the same facts to get to those poles, we’ll just use them differently. No. That’s why I pointed out all the missing Facts. The fact that in the US, it’s likely to be a trap, which removes the whole ethical question. The fact that if Bob passes by one Point, he’s unsuited for that Job. The fact that if Bob has been taught Integrity as highest value, he’s been taught wrong anyway. All those Facts are not mentioned, so how many take them into account when coming to their decision? > [@](#): > > In fact, if you distill the OP down to the truly relevant details, it would read “You incorrectly receive a passing test grade. Do you point out the error?” Truly, this would not have been an engaging enough posting for many of us to engage with. No. Context changes that question every time. If Bob is a woman or Person of colour in US, and wants to be a cop to Change this culture from within, how do we know that all testees were given the same test? Maybe the female/ black testees got the Alabama literacy Version, and the other testees got the "write your Name here " Version. In that case, I would advise for not pointing it out. If the context is that it’s not the US, but a modern Country, where Police School takes 3 years, with mid-exams every half-year, and Bob got A’s all the time, but barely scraped by with 1 Point above D on the final? I would go not to the teacher, but the director, and want to know what’s up. If Bob got D’s all the time, I want to know what his teachers did to Change this, or why he didn’t drop out if he was unsuited obviously before finals. If all mid-terms were graded by the teachers, who like Bob as the son of a fellow officer, but the final is state-administered and graded by Outsiders, I would be less surprised as to why Bob went from As to a D. And so on. Answers Change depending on the context. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-ethical-dilemma-question/811005/24 "2018-03-28T17:57:52Z")
And a second warning for introducing your pet bug-a-boo about hating the US into a completely unrelated thread. Go for the trifecta. I dare you. > [@constanze](#): > > That is a badly formulated question. You introduce completly irrelevant Details, and leave out all the important context. > > To avoid mixups with who “you” refers to, I will call the theoretical Person in your Scenario “Bob” (Bob the Blob to avoid the gender question). > > A. How many children Bob has is irrelevant, if he lives in a modern Country. The question is not supposed to be “Should Bob work as a cop, or his children will starve?” because in modern countries Bob will get unemployment and Food stamps for his children. > So first missing context is “Why does Bob want to become a cop and not work at Walmart?” > > If Bob lives in a poor Country, where the only well-paid Job is Cop, then the question is no longer about integrity, but the “Steal medicine” Dilemma. > > B. In what Country is Bob living? Because if he’s in the US, he can’t Claim integrity. The current state of US Police is that it’s a rotten Organisation to the core, not just a few bad apples. Black Lives Matter has shown how often not just cops shoot civilians because they are black - but that the whole Group Closes ranks and nothing happens. The cop isn’t automatically suspended until after Trial; evidence is planted by the cop or other cops, and nothing happens when it’s discovered; cops lie in court, and nothing happens; cops are sentenced, but not fired. > > If there is any Kind of selection on who not to make a cop, it’s against People with too much intelligence, not on who has the personality of a bully. There is no established Standard of Training, so even without evidence by the FBI that supremacist Groups have deliberatly infiltrated law enforcment in the US, it’s obvious by behaviour alone that bullies feel attracted to a Job where a badge protects them from consequences. > > C. What Kind of cop School does Bob go to that “Integrity” is the most important part? Integrity in itself is not a value; People can have integrity to be racist jerks. > The first duty of a cop in a democratic state is to protect citizens by keeping the peace. Not protecting the established order: not protect their own lives by Shooting first; not protecting the (White) majority by Shooting (black) People first; not by dividing People into “Us Cops” and “those civilians” instead of “we citizens”. > > D. What Kind of test is it - Multiple choice or Essay questions? > Essay questions are graded individually, so Points may be awarded for what Bob doesn’t see. > > E. Who wrote that test? A federal board with not only cops, but also experts in law, and advocacy Groups, to test not just knowledge, but also personality of a cop (Essay questions)? > > Or is it the local Sheriff, and the questions are “Write your Name, how you are related to the Sheriff, What do you think of the Job the Sheriff is doing, what’s your favourite colour?” > > Is it the equivalence to the Alabama voter literacy test for one Group of Testees, and “Write your Name” for another Group? > > F. How many Points? Passing by one Point out of 10 is different from one Point out of 400. > > G. Who graded the test - his own instructors? Or neutral federal testers? > > H. Apparently this does take place only in the US, because Bob finishes after 24 weeks, instead of 2 years Minimum. > My question was about how Bob could have studied hard for his dream Job all this time and not notice he was failing the half-year Progress tests, but in only 6 months, there might not have been Interim tests. > > My conclusion is: > If Bob only got 24 weeks, supposedly studied hard because we’re supposed to believe he takes his future Job as cop serious, and yet just scrapes by with one Point, he should quit any way, regardless if this one Point was in error or not. > > Scraping by with only one Point after studying hard means that Bob is not cut out for the difficult, responsible, demanding Job of a Police officer. If he values integrity, then he must look for a Job he is actually suited for - which might still be in law enforcement: there are lots of Support positions. But not as cop. > > Additionally, since this is the US: Obviously this is a trap. There are too many stories out there of how People in power in the US love to screw with those under them (And get away because there is no legal protection). > Passing by only one Point, and obviously given in mistake? It’s a trap disguised as “test of character”. If Bob doesn’t speak up, they will tell him he failed the character test and he won’t get the Job anyway. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-ethical-dilemma-question/811005/25 "2018-03-30T21:58:52Z")
Who pays for people to attend police academy? ---
**Author:** ![Bic\_D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Bic\_D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bic_D)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-ethical-dilemma-question/811005/26 "2018-04-02T01:39:41Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Who pays for people to attend police academy? My department did. You are paid as a police recruit. Once you completed training, your pay structure changed. To answer a question above… In my academy (80s) you were given 1 or 2 and sometimes 3 exams a week based on the subject matter you learned during the week. If you failed an exam, you were allowed to re-take one time. If you passed, you moved on. If you failed, you were booted. During the 6 month academy, you could only fail and re-take 4 tests. If you failed a 5th test, you were booted. At the end of the 6 month academy, the recruit was given one final state exam administered from someone from the state. If you passed, it was all good. If you failed, you were booted, no re-takes. I’m retired now so some of this may have changed, but I don’t believe so ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-ethical-dilemma-question/811005/27 "2018-04-02T16:42:32Z")
Are you already working there and then get paid to go to the academy? Or you are recruited off the street and sent to the academy on their dime? ---
**Author:** ![Bic\_D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Bic\_D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bic_D)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-ethical-dilemma-question/811005/28 "2018-04-03T00:34:26Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Are you already working there and then get paid to go to the academy? Or you are recruited off the street and sent to the academy on their dime? For my department…An academy is announced (30-45 positions depending on the budget) and you apply for one of the positions. You then go through several stages including. 1. Initial Interview 2. 2nd interview 3. Physical Fitness (booted if requirements are not met) 4. Drug test (booted if test is failed) 5. Polygraph (booted if the test shows deception) 6. Psych Exam (booted if you’re too crazy) 7. Final interview for which a conditional offer of employment is given. If the recruit accepts the offer, he/she becomes a city employee about a week before the academy begins. At that time, they are fitted with clothes, shoes/boots etc…If at any time during the academy you are booted for any reason then it’s as if your were terminated from a job. Your seat is empty the next day. Once you complete the academy, you go from Recruit status to Trainee Status which is a bump in pay. You then complete a 6 week Field Training Program with an FTO at which point you go from Trainee to Police Officer 1 which is another bump in pay. At this point, you just decide what you want to do in law enforcement meaning, what career path do you want to take. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-ethical-dilemma-question/811005.md?page=1)