# Moral Relativism in the United State Foreign Policy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 20, 2006, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745 "2006-01-20T00:02:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/41 "2006-01-20T16:54:53Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > There is, in fact, a war going on in Afghanistan, against AQ. It ousted the Taliban, and is currently attempting to unify the country. If it is not a war, it is a police action. How do you disagree with this? I’m referring to TWAT but there is a war in Adghanistan. A Civil War in which we are half-heartedly siding with one bunch of murdering, drug-dealing scum over another while propping up the Mayor of Kabul for as long ass it takes someone to off him. And if that war is so important why didn’t the US do a proper job of it instead of invading Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/42 "2006-01-20T17:28:57Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m just here to tell you that other than tobacco, firearms, and oil, there ain’t much industry left in the US. If we have a military-industrial complex - it isn’t that complex at all. You’re _way_ wrong. The 2004 CIA World Facts Handbook says that 26.2% of the 2003 U.S. GDP is attributed to the manufacturing and industrial sector. That’s $3 _trillion_. An awful lotta nothing. It also lists these as the largest sectors of industry: _leading industrial power in the world_, highly diversified and technologically advanced; petroleum, steel, motor vehicles, aerospace, telecommunications, chemicals, electronics, food processing, consumer goods, lumber, mining. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/43 "2006-01-20T17:47:07Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I’m referring to TWAT but there is a war in Adghanistan. A Civil War in which we are half-heartedly siding with one bunch of murdering, drug-dealing scum over another while propping up the Mayor of Kabul for as long ass it takes someone to off him. And if that war is so important why didn’t the US do a proper job of it instead of invading Iraq? So there _is_ a war in Afghanistan. And the leaders of the war are playing dipsy-do across the border, hiding and running. And yes, we aren’t giving it our full attention. That’s not my choice. My point is, it is a state of war, we are shooting and bombing things there. And, as I said, it’s pretty much akin to the bombing of Democratic Kampuchea during 'Nam. Doesn’t mean I approve of it, but it’s a lot _faster_ to bomb something than to get soldiers to it. (On the other hand, if we’d gotten soldiers there, then maybe one of the women would have survived, but… maybe not. It’s not like it’s safer to be shot at than bombed.) And I don’t know why Bush has his own priorities. I think they’re screwed up. But that doesn’t make this any more of a horror than any other military bombing, objectively. ---
**Author:** ![scule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@scule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scule)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/44 "2006-01-20T18:01:13Z")
The truth buried in here, as some posters have alluded to, is that **mswas** actually does make a few good points. The US has for many, many years claimed a certain “moral privilege” to in a sense do whatever is in its “national interests” all over the world. There’s no denying the arms dealing and government changing and supporting that the American government has participated in for so long. From the shah in Iran, to Nicaragua, to Iraq, there’s been a ton of things that the US has done, that have made the world worse, but that have been supposedly “in the US national interest”. What is hard for an outsider to grasp, however, is why the US’s national interest is any more important or relevant than their own, or that of the country being affected. Yet it seems that what it really comes down to is _might makes right_, which is a thoroughly wretched way to govern and believe. I think the people of the US have been effectively duped for a long time into believing that “America, love it or leave it” is a good slogan to have. That said, a word of advice to **mswas** : if you have a point to make, and it’s one you feel strongly about, write it out objectively, try to grasp the counter-arguments, and refute those rationally. Don’t spew. Spewing leads to bile, and bilious writing wins you no converts, nor any respect. You had good points in there somewhere, but you corrupted them with so much vitriol and froth that it’s hard to take them seriously. Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/45 "2006-01-20T18:36:19Z")
> [@scule](#): > > Don’t spew. Spewing leads to bile, and bilious writing wins you no converts, nor any respect. You had good points in there somewhere, but you corrupted them with so much vitriol and froth that it’s hard to take them seriously. Just a thought. Actually, if we weren’t numbed by the unending horrors of the evil being done in our names, we’d be spewing too. It’s salutary to see it. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/46 "2006-01-20T19:14:38Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > You’re _way_ wrong. The 2004 CIA World Facts Handbook says that 26.2% of the 2003 U.S. GDP is attributed to the manufacturing and industrial sector. That’s $3 _trillion_. An awful lotta nothing. Beer, I was making a somewhat flippant and hyperbolic statement, but I can clarify: durable goods manufacturing in the US is in a decline. Not every SIC code, but a staggering number of them. ‘Industry’ is a more general term, but it simply wouldn’t have been punny if I hadn’t used it. See for yourself. Make sure you look at outputs by index and not inputs or EMS. [http://www.bea.gov/bea/uguide.htm#\_1\_13](http://www.bea.gov/bea/uguide.htm#_1_13) ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/47 "2006-01-20T19:20:42Z")
Oh, and even with outputs, be careful. Sometimes a US product is nothing more than foriegn parts with final assembly taking place here. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/48 "2006-01-20T21:18:25Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I’m the kind of idiot that knows that America isn’t an innocent victim. I’m the kind of idiot that knows about Iran Contra, and knows that George W Bush thought Saddam had WMDs because he had the receipt from the sale that his Daddy brokered. I am the kind of idiot that knows that the Bush family and their oil buddies in Texas and Saudi Arabia have been engineering Middle East foreign policy both with American governmental authority, and outside of it for the entire time I’ve been alive. > > Erek You’re the kind of idiot that thinks you’re Jesus Christ. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/49 "2006-01-20T21:38:59Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > You’re the kind of idiot that thinks you’re Jesus Christ. Jesus would never beat his wife. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/50 "2006-01-21T01:04:13Z")
Y’know, I’ll be honest. Sometimes I sit there and think about the war in Iraq, the lies about WMDs, the mad spending, the corporate cronyism, the raping of the minorities, the anal rape of the third world… And, I wonder to myself. “Is this really what it’s all about? Are we really doing the right thing?” And I have my doubts. And then, I come to this thread and read the OP in all it’s bizarrely confused biliousness… …And I know it’s all good. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/51 "2006-01-21T01:30:49Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I really wish people would stop burying the occasional good point in the midst of a boatload of illogical, paranoid, and almost incomprehensible gibberish. > > I also wish people could spell Eisenhower. > > I also wish I had a pony. Can’t help you with number one and two, but here’s a pitchfork, and there’s a heap of manure over there. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/52 "2006-01-21T01:49:39Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Y’know, I’ll be honest. Sometimes I sit there and think about the war in Iraq, the lies about WMDs, the mad spending, the corporate cronyism, the raping of the minorities, the anal rape of the third world… > > And, I wonder to myself. “Is this really what it’s all about? Are we really doing the right thing?” > > And I have my doubts. > And then, I come to this thread and read the OP in all it’s bizarrely confused biliousness… > > …And I know it’s all good. Don’t worry, that’s just the New Republicanism coming through. It doesn’t matter if you were wrong about WMD in Iraq, as long as everyone else was too. It doesn’t matter if you’re violating the law by wiretapping citizens without a warrant, as long as you can say prior President’s may have done it too. It doesn’t matter if lobbyists paid off your congresspersons, as long as Democrats got money too. It doesn’t matter if you insanely increase federal spending and the federal government, as long as you can find someone on the far left who sounds like an idiot. New Republicanism… As long as we can find someone doing something worse, we’ll be OK!!! ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/53 "2006-01-21T01:54:36Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > . As long as we can find someone doing something worse, we’ll be OK!!! No, it’s not that, it’s just that so many of you guys… are just so fucking stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/54 "2006-01-21T02:52:48Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > No, it’s not that, it’s just that so many of you guys… are just so fucking stupid. By “you guys” I’ll assume you mean idiots on the left, and not me. 'Cause the right wing doesn’t have idiot of their own. _cough_ Robertson _cough_ New Iskander _cough_ _cough_ Dubya\* I’m just sick of every time an issue comes up for the Republicans, their first defense is to lash out at anyone who disagrees. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/55 "2006-01-21T03:11:18Z")
In the interest of fighting ignorance, moral relativism is not the same as judging other people differently than you’d judge yourself–that’s called hypocrisy. Moral relativism is the belief that there is no absolute good or bad, only what people think. [Wiki–Moral Relativism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism) ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/56 "2006-01-21T03:47:20Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I’m just sick of every time an issue comes up for the Republicans, their first defense is to lash out at anyone who disagrees. If you had ever argued on these boards as a conservative, I, in all honesty don’t believe you’d be so quick to assign that tactic to the right, after you’ve been called a Bushista, apologist, or Repugnican, and, certainly the OP itself is ironic living proof that such is alive an well among the lefties. Or, in other words, attend to the two by four in thine own eye, ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/57 "2006-01-21T03:53:36Z")
Disappointing OP and subsequent debating, **mswas**. You are good at nuance; you can see many perspectives at once. This ain’t that. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/58 "2006-01-21T03:57:20Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Can’t help you with number one and two, but here’s a pitchfork, and there’s a heap of manure over there. 😃 I would like to alter my last line to: I also wish I had a hamster. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/59 "2006-01-21T03:59:46Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > If you had ever argued on these boards as a conservative, I, in all honesty don’t believe you’d be so quick to assign that tactic to the right, after you’ve been called a Bushista, apologist, or Repugnican, and, certainly the OP itself is ironic living proof that such is alive an well among the lefties. Maybe I didn’t finish my last post. In addition to lashing out at anyone who calls them into question, this adminstration and its lackeys piss me off by, after the first attack, they do the martyr complex crap. I have no idea why that just popped into my mind… > [@Scylla](#): > > Or, in other words, attend to the two by four in thine own eye, You could not have proven my point any better. Never mind the issues, attack, attack, attack. And, just so you know, I’ve pissed off **Dio** , **ElvisL!ves** , and **mswas** for calling them on their bullshit. How’s your record? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/60 "2006-01-21T04:13:48Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Maybe I didn’t finish my last post. In addition to lashing out at anyone who calls them into question, this adminstration and its lackeys piss me off by, after the first attack, they do the martyr complex crap. I have no idea why that just popped into my mind… Yeah well the thing that pisses me off about lefties is that they can never finish a thought. > [@](#): > > You could not have proven my point any better. Never mind the issues, attack, attack, attack. We’re not discussing issues here, are we? What issues are we actually discussing. > [@](#): > > And, just so you know, I’ve pissed off **Dio** , **ElvisL!ves** , and **mswas** for calling them on their bullshit. How’s your record? Better. I’ll bet I’ve pissed them off a lot more than you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745.md?page=4)