# Moral Relativism in the United State Foreign Policy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 20, 2006, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745 "2006-01-20T00:02:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/81 "2006-01-23T21:23:07Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Osama Bin Ladin would no doubt roll his eyes at you too if you called him evil. NOBODY wants to believe that they are the bad guys. Heh, the irony of this post was that I used Moral Relativism incorrectly while taking a Moral Relativist position. I don’t think Airman Doors is the bad guy either, but I do think that supporting the war in Iraq is bad for America, and that anyone who is fighting in that war is fighting against America’s best interests. Of course that’s only my opinion, and we’ll see what happens, because I can see certain scenarios where things can work out well, but I don’t think that they can occur with this administration in power. We are fighting a 1984 style war, and I only hope that those who are fighting in this war wake up and stop accepting it. This is not what America is about, a war of aggression flies in the face of everything America stands for. Torturing suspects without trial is against everything America stands for. Taking away civil liberties indefinitely while fighting an open ended war is against everything America stands for. Anyone fighting in this war isn’t fighting for America. People talk about me spewing vitriole, but I’m not out killing people for my opinions. Maybe I’m not all that mature, maybe I fail at explaining my position because I can’t get beyond my anger, but it’s better to let it out than sublimate it and support extremist violent politics out of an irrational fear of boogeymen overseas that I never expressed because I’m afraid that people will think I’m crazy or immature. So you found out that the monsters under the bed weren’t real, but you needed some monsters to believe in so you looked across the pond and saw some people who were different enough to label as ‘other’. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/82 "2006-01-23T21:24:34Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Don’t worry, that’s just the New Republicanism coming through. It doesn’t matter if you were wrong about WMD in Iraq, as long as everyone else was too. It doesn’t matter if you’re violating the law by wiretapping citizens without a warrant, as long as you can say prior President’s may have done it too. It doesn’t matter if lobbyists paid off your congresspersons, as long as Democrats got money too. It doesn’t matter if you insanely increase federal spending and the federal government, as long as you can find someone on the far left who sounds like an idiot. > > New Republicanism… As long as we can find someone doing something worse, we’ll be OK!!! > [@Hamlet](#): > > By “you guys” I’ll assume you mean idiots on the left, and not me. 'Cause the right wing doesn’t have idiot of their own. _cough_ Robertson _cough_ New Iskander _cough_ _cough_ Dubya\* I’m just sick of every time an issue comes up for the Republicans, their first defense is to lash out at anyone who disagrees. :dubious: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/83 "2006-01-23T21:39:23Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > How do you KNOW the majority of **Iraqis** thought the invastion was worth it? Which western news source supplied you with this information? And if it is true, which Iraqi news source believed it was worth it? > > Erek I hope we’re not really gonna argue epistemology here. This poll was done in mid-2004 and since then things have MUCH improved. > [@](#): > > The CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll showed conflicted feelings among Iraqis over the war and its impact at the time of the survey. > > Most interviews were done between March 22 and April 9 – before the latest flare-up of violence that brought some of the deadliest fighting since the end of major combat nearly a year ago. > > Iraqi interviewers conducted face-to-face surveys with 3,444 adults in Arabic and Kurdish in respondents’ homes. The poll covered urban and rural areas throughout Iraq, representing about 93 percent of the population. It has a sampling error of plus or minus 2 percentage points… > > But asked, “Thinking about any hardships you might have suffered since the U.S.-Britain invasion, do you personally think that ousting Saddam Hussein was worth it or not?” Sixty-one percent said it was worth it. Twenty-eight percent said it was not, while 9 percent said they were not sure. Other questions in the poll ranged from slightly unfavorable to slightly favorable. This question however represented the “grand sum.” ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/84 "2006-01-23T22:05:23Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > I hope we’re not really gonna argue epistemology here. This poll was done in mid-2004 and since then things have MUCH improved. That depends upon who you ask. I hear it both ways. So like I said “According to which source?” > [@](#): > > Other questions in the poll ranged from slightly unfavorable to slightly favorable. This question however represented the “grand sum.” What did they have to say about the favorability of the continued occupation? As for the rest of it. [![](https://l-userpic.livejournal.com/26318491/161290) ](https://l-userpic.livejournal.com/26318491/161290) Erek ---
**Author:** ![canyonoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8797f3/32.png) [@canyonoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/canyonoak)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/85 "2006-01-23T22:37:12Z")
well, mswas, thank you. sometimes, I read the manipulated press and listen to the manipulated mindset-babble, and wonder if ANYONE is really out there. so–thank you. I dont think I have anything to add to the arguments you’ve laid out here…there comes a point, in dealing with the political realm, where shades of gray lose their meaning and one has to start over again: Black. White. this BB is a fairly new one for me…I just started going to BBQ Pit…and Im starting to look forward to checking in here. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/86 "2006-01-23T22:49:20Z")
> [@canyonoak](#): > > well, mswas, thank you. > > sometimes, I read the manipulated press and listen to the manipulated mindset-babble, and wonder if ANYONE is really out there. > > so–thank you. > > I dont think I have anything to add to the arguments you’ve laid out here…there comes a point, in dealing with the political realm, where shades of gray lose their meaning and one has to start over again: > > Black. > White. > > this BB is a fairly new one for me…I just started going to BBQ Pit…and Im starting to look forward to checking in here. No, thank you, I get into a siege mentality here sometimes, I appreciate it when someone actually appreciates what I have to say. Not to diminish the others who have chimed in with their agreements, or even partial agreements, especially those that disagree with me a lot of the time on many things. Erek ---
**Author:** ![gooftroopag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gooftroopag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gooftroopag)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/87 "2006-01-23T22:59:27Z")
**mswas** , much better rant. I still feel there is a moral distinction between terrorists and soldiers, but that is a matter of opinion. I’m curious why you would think this: > [@mswas](#): > > …the threat of Nuclear war is greater than it’s ever been. It seems to me, that there is a big difference between the nuclear scare of the 50’s and 60’s and that of today; let alone the political atmosphere in America. I, personally, believe that things are getting better (of course, I think Bush is a bit of a back slide, but we’ve come far from the 50’s and 60’s, imho). **KidCharlemagne** , how much would you suspect those figures are related to an end of the sanctions that are estimated to have caused 500,000 - 1.5 million deaths in Iraq? ([Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein#1991-2003)) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/88 "2006-01-23T23:06:43Z")
[QUOTE=gooftroopag] > [@](#): > > I’m curious why you would think this: Tactical Nukes being an option for the US side. France has told Iran that it might be willing to use Nukes as a response to terrorism. Iran and North Korea are working to get nukes because they are scared little rats in a corner and we continue to push them farther into the corner. > [@](#): > > It seems to me, that there is a big difference between the nuclear scare of the 50’s and 60’s and that of today; let alone the political atmosphere in America. I, personally, believe that things are getting better (of course, I think Bush is a bit of a back slide, but we’ve come far from the 50’s and 60’s, imho). Mutually assured destruction was a greater deterrent when you knew who the enemy was and had legitimate targets. Not so when you are willing to use Nukes as a response to terrorism. 19 Saudis attacked the United States, and we toppled Afghanistan and Iraq. Imagine if we’d used nukes as a response to terrorism like France proposes? And meanwhile the army marches across the middle east spewing tons of greenhouse gases in order to keep America safe to drive SUVs and muscle cars, while there is clear evidence that global warming is getting really bad. Erek ---
**Author:** ![gooftroopag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gooftroopag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gooftroopag)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/89 "2006-01-24T00:23:04Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Imagine if we’d used nukes as a response to terrorism like France proposes? The optimist in me says this was more a political ploy than anything else. Imho, he was flexing his muscles in the wake of the Paris riots, rather than actually declaring war. Not to mention France, in recent history, has been rather pacifist. They opposed the war, I just don’t see it as an option they would actually use - more like a deterant, “look what I can do!” > [@mswas](#): > > And meanwhile the army marches across the middle east spewing tons of greenhouse gases in order to keep America safe to drive SUVs and muscle cars, while there is clear evidence that global warming is getting really bad. But we actually have hybrids, biodiesel (not that I think this is a valid option) and electric vechiles! That’s a huge step in the right direction and a huge accomplishment considering there are enough people in the American population that are making their production profitable. I see that fact that people are trying to reduce emissions (all global warming emissions) and come up with alternatives to oil (and getting federal funds to pursue their research) as a significant step in the right direction, particularly as more and more people get on the band wagon. I think you’re also omitting the other causes of global wamring. It is not just attributed to oil related emissions. You have emissions related to making coal, semiconductors, rice paddies, and landfills to name a few. ([Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming#Greenhouse_gas_emissions)) PLUS, while I do not support the war, I think you’re forgetting another important use of oil: plastics. If I’m not mistaken, you DJ, right? Get rid of plastics and you’ll have a very interesting time being a DJ. Not to mention computers, cell phones, etc. Of course, I’m not saying I support the war, but if the true intent is to acquire more oil, then plastics are part of the problem, too. Not just SUV’s. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/90 "2006-01-24T18:05:04Z")
> [@gooftroopag](#): > > The optimist in me says this was more a political ploy than anything else. Imho, he was flexing his muscles in the wake of the Paris riots, rather than actually declaring war. Not to mention France, in recent history, has been rather pacifist. They opposed the war, I just don’t see it as an option they would actually use - more like a deterant, “look what I can do!” Possibly > [@](#): > > But we actually have hybrids, biodiesel (not that I think this is a valid option) and electric vechiles! That’s a huge step in the right direction and a huge accomplishment considering there are enough people in the American population that are making their production profitable. I find it funny that the most viable option, biodiesel, is the one people are least willing to accept. Even though biodiesel is being fairly widely used, and it’s usage is increasing. It can be aquired from the vast amount of grease that we use to cook our food, and the soybean industry in minnesota is making a killing from it. > [@](#): > > I see that fact that people are trying to reduce emissions (all global warming emissions) and come up with alternatives to oil (and getting federal funds to pursue their research) as a significant step in the right direction, particularly as more and more people get on the band wagon. Is it going to happen soon enough? > [@](#): > > I think you’re also omitting the other causes of global wamring. It is not just attributed to oil related emissions. You have emissions related to making coal, semiconductors, rice paddies, and landfills to name a few. ([Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming#Greenhouse_gas_emissions)) I am not eliminating anything, I am saying that any reduction is good. I personally think we as a society should give up beef, but I still love my steak. > [@](#): > > PLUS, while I do not support the war, I think you’re forgetting another important use of oil: plastics. If I’m not mistaken, you DJ, right? Get rid of plastics and you’ll have a very interesting time being a DJ. Not to mention computers, cell phones, etc. Of course, I’m not saying I support the war, but if the true intent is to acquire more oil, then plastics are part of the problem, too. Not just SUV’s. I didn’t say get rid of platic completely. So while vinyl records are made from plastic they are not the culprit. The real problems are the plastic packages that have way too much plastic in them. It is people buying a single item at the grocery store and taking a bag to carry that single item. However, if Vinyl records disappeared I’d use a program like Ableton live and play a live set mixing multiple tracks together. I don’t support all or nothing solutions. It is all or nothing solutions that have us wrapped up in this mess. For instance you dismissed biodiesel even though it’s one of the main competitors to oil right now, and it’s not about replacing oil with one solution it’s about multiple solutions. Replace an increasing percentage of Diesel with BioDiesel, replace an increasing percentage of Gasoline with Ethanol and/or hybrids. Depolymerization will help us recycle plastics. Erek ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/91 "2006-01-24T19:17:17Z")
> [@gooftroopag](#): > > **KidCharlemagne** , how much would you suspect those figures are related to an end of the sanctions that are estimated to have caused 500,000 - 1.5 million deaths in Iraq? ([Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein#1991-2003)) You mean the sanctions that allowed the UN to starve Iraqis while they enriched Saddam and themselves? Perhaps a decent amount. I consider them liberated from Saddam AND the UN. I just can’t believe we’re actually getting the UN involved in Iran. ---
**Author:** ![gooftroopag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gooftroopag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gooftroopag)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/92 "2006-01-24T19:28:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > …it’s not about replacing oil with one solution it’s about multiple solutions. You’re absolutely right about this. I’d totally be for a market where you pull up to a gas station and have your choice of electric, hydrogen, etc. Realistically, I question whether the market could handle more options for the average consumer. Is it profitable enough for car manufactures to get on board? - that I don’t know. > [@mswas](#): > > I find it funny that the most viable option, biodiesel, is the one people are least willing to accept. First, I’ll assume you’re talking about Straight Vegetable Oil Fuels rather than what I consider biodiesel, because not all biodiesels are pure bio-stuff. Some contain a mixture up to 90% petroleum ([ref](http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#1mixing) and [ref2](http://www.transit-safety.volpe.dot.gov/Publications/CleanAir/Alt_Fuel/alt_fuel.htm)). For simplicity, I’ll use SVO to refer to the biofuels I think you’re talking about. Second, SVO’s are not, imho, a renewable energy source. The production and growth of soy beans depletes nutrients from the soil. It takes time to replenish these nutrients and if farming is too wide spread, or competition develops between SVO farmers and consumer farmers, we could develop problems related to over farming. Further, as some have estimated the US does not have enough available farm land to power itself ([ref](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel)). Of course, there is the potential for algae related SVO’s, but I haven’t read much about them, so I’ll have to reserve judgement until I do. Third, my preferred option is always renewable first, diversity second. ---
**Author:** ![gooftroopag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gooftroopag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gooftroopag)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/93 "2006-01-24T19:38:00Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > You mean the sanctions that allowed the UN to starve Iraqis while they enriched Saddam and themselves? Perhaps a decent amount. I consider them liberated from Saddam AND the UN. I just can’t believe we’re actually getting the UN involved in Iran. Then what do you say to claims that the US knew it was occuring and gave kickbacks to Saddam? ([ref](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_for_Food_program#US_and_UK_complicity)) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/94 "2006-01-24T21:25:49Z")
Here are some pictures I took at the movie theater in Times Square where I saw Munich. [http://photobucket.com/albums/v167/MsWas/gumwrapper/?sc=4](http://photobucket.com/albums/v167/MsWas/gumwrapper/?sc=4) What these pictures are of, is gumwrappers from the free gum they handed out in the theater, all around the trash can and the escalators that had trash cans at the top and the bottom. Gum wrappers are made from petroleum. The people that the soldiers are trying to save are the people who can’t be bothered to toss their petroleum based garbage into the receptacles conveniently provided for them. They are spoiled little pigs and don’t deserve to be protected. If these little piggies were not being overfed, then the enemy wouldn’t "hate us for our way of life"™, because we wouldn’t be fighting to control their oil. As for biodiesel, what you are talking about is mixtures. The biodiesel is real biodiesel just mixed with the existing diesel. As of now we already have two choices, either gasoline or diesel. So we could replace most of the diesel with biodiesel. As far as pure vegetable oil, that’s not what I am talking about. People all over the country are setting up their own biodiesel refineries. A friend of mine is setting up [www.tristatebiodiesel.com](http://www.tristatebiodiesel.com) to take waste grease from restaurants in New York, refine it and sell it to trucking companies to fuel their fleets. The irony of it all is that biodiesel from waste grease is cheaper than both petrodiesel and soy biodiesel because the process that turns it into cooking oil is a couple steps along in the refining process, so largely the refining process is mostly about removing the particulate matter and thinning it to the consistency of diesel fuel, so that it can combust without being pre-heated, which is what the veggie conversion does. It will run in any diesel engine, and there is a lot of fryer grease out there that is already being produced, and is already a part of the economy, this is one of the best solutions because it requires the least amount of retooling in order to implement. It’s not going to be a be all end all replacement, but it can certainly be a significant dent in our oil consumption. So not supporting it is kind of silly, because it’s a solution that people have already implemented and are continuing to implement in greater numbers, as opposed to wet dreams like hydrogen which haven’t gotten off the ground yet. (oh the humanity!) So you’re sitting there dismissing the solution that’s already going into effect, and wishing for some other sexier alternative that requires a massive reinvention of the way we operate. Think of every Mickey D’s and Burger King in the country. That’s a fuckload of Veggie Oil waiting to be tapped, and the vast majority of the country is still waiting to tap this resource, only in a few places like Boulder Colorado is this resource getting used at near maximum capacity. Farmers are already farming the crops to turn it into cooking oil, so it doesn’t really change much. So your other solutions are interesting solutions, and I like em, but they are still in the future, whereas biodiesel is now, and I’m much more interested in what we can do in the present. Imagine if all that military industrial complex money being spent to dominate oil fields in other countries was being spent domestically to come up with alternate fuel sources, we’d be sitting pretty. And don’t tell me that there’s no profit in that, because there is plenty. This war is pretty much pointless on all counts as far as benefitting the American people. It’s only good for the Command and Control aristocracy that wants to keep us dumb and stuck on the teat. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/95 "2006-01-24T21:27:05Z")
Renewable and Diversity should come together, as they are not mutually exclusive. You don’t always have to create a hierarchy of priorities you know. Erek ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/96 "2006-01-24T21:54:27Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Gum wrappers are made from petroleum. Are you sure? Most that I know of are paper, wax-coated paper, foil or foil coated paper. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/97 "2006-01-24T22:36:35Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Are you sure? Most that I know of are paper, wax-coated paper, foil or foil coated paper. The little vacuum sealed pouches that individually wrapped **Dentyne Ice Cool Frost** come in are certainly made out of plastic. That’s what the pictures are of. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/98 "2006-01-24T22:49:02Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Are you sure? Most that I know of are paper, wax-coated paper, foil or foil coated paper. It’s a stretch, but gum wrappers are paper backed foil, with the paper being treated with a hydrocarbon that might include polypropylene or polyethylene. mswas will normally start with some small grain of truth before crafting his grand pearl of silliness. ---
**Author:** ![gooftroopag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gooftroopag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gooftroopag)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/99 "2006-01-24T23:20:11Z")
**mswas** , biodiesel is a short term alternative, not a solution. It could not handle the strain of the full automobile driving country nor will it survive past the end of oil. Reducing our consumption is a step, certainly, but changing our habits, changing our cities and redesigning engines are long term solutions - none of which biodiesel does. The difference I see between biodiesel and hybrids is that people recognize with hybrids that things are going to change - that engines need to change. Biodiesel gives people a false sense of security, it doesn’t impress on them that the time for change is now, and that the need is now. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2006, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745/100 "2006-01-24T23:51:06Z")
Can I just say that from a non-American perspective, most of what Erek says is commonly discussed in my circles and in Journals, magazines, documentaries etc. It does tend to make us (IMHO) believe that a majority of Americans are quite naive about their country’s own politics and power. The recent Lobbyist scandal has once again helped to bring ‘the American way’ into the world’s public scrutiny. Perhaps we are just born more cynical? The BBC’s ‘Yes Prime Minister’, although a comedy, is often taken more as a documentary! Perhaps America could do with a programme similar to this, to help the masses have a better understanding of political shenanegans? Irish New Yorkers and their support for the IRA has been mentioned, but nothing on Isreal and Jewish American Republicans and business owners?!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/moral-relativism-in-the-united-state-foreign-policy/340745.md?page=6)