# Morality and animals labeled as "pests" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2010, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887 "2010-06-12T04:48:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/81 "2010-06-16T14:58:14Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Precisely. And implying that trapping a mouse and then letting it die a slow miserable death in my wastebasket is somehow morally comparable to not flying to Haiti leaves me wondering whether you’re that vile or just that stupid. Please refrain from personal insults like these in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/82 "2010-06-16T15:03:58Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > So break the cycle and answer the following: Why is animal suffering a bad thing to have in this world? You can’t use the premise “It’s immoral”. I can’t prove it, but from my experience, it seems that the more casual and indifferent your attitude is to animal suffering, the more likely you are to be cruel and indifferent to your fellow humans. I’m not saying there is a general trend, but there is certainly a tendency, as evidenced by the amount of known sociopaths who started out killing small animals. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/83 "2010-06-16T15:18:29Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > But the most common mouse traps, snap traps, are _usually_ humane and provide a quick, not very messy death. Generally when you’re not even there. Why not use them? Why use a glue trap? I use snap traps if I know there are mice to catch. I don’t want to leave them set indefinitely though. So, I use a glue trap as a monitoring tool. If I catch a mouse in the glue trap, I set a bunch of snap traps and watch them until they stop catching, then they get put away and a glue trap placed for continued surveillance. ---
**Author:** ![kenner116](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecb155/32.png) [@kenner116](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenner116)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/84 "2010-06-16T15:35:12Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Your reasoning is circular: > Animal suffering is bad. We have a moral responsibility to limit it. Why? Because animal suffering is bad. Why is it bad? Because we have a moral responsibility to limit it. > > So break the cycle and answer the following: Why is animal suffering a bad thing to have in this world? You can’t use the premise “It’s immoral”. Why is human suffering a bad thing? If I am stronger than a woman, does that make it acceptable to rape her? If I have the ability to capture and enslave some humans, doesn’t that show that I am a superior being and therefore deserve to work them to death? Please explain to me why people should have any moral responsibilities at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/85 "2010-06-16T16:29:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Now THERE’s an interesting way to kill a mouse: Catch it in a non-lethal container and nail it to a cross, then put it up to warn off other mice. > > Would not work. At all. Kinda sad, actually. Yeah, the other mice would just start a myth about how it came back from the dead, then in a couple thousand years they’d take over the mouse auxiliary wing of the GOP. (which already has issues with it’s mascot being afraid of it’s members) They’d start advocating torture for suspected terrorist mice, and you’d be right back at glue traps again. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/86 "2010-06-16T16:44:15Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I can’t prove it, but from my experience, it seems that the more casual and indifferent your attitude is to animal suffering, the more likely you are to be cruel and indifferent to your fellow humans. > > I’m not saying there is a general trend, but there is certainly a tendency, as evidenced by the amount of known sociopaths who started out killing small animals. That may be true, but remember, I haven’t argued that one “must” or “should” feel a certain way about a particular animal’s suffering. It’s just that animal suffering is not _objectively_ an evil thing. In the case of kicking puppies, well that makes me sad. So I can say that it’s a wrong thing. But I know that dogs get punished by their owners for, say, peeing on the carpet. It doesn’t mean I want to watch it happen. The point is, it’s up to the individual. The friend in the OP feels no sorror for tossing a wriggling mouse in the trash. There’s nothing immoral about that. > [@kenner116](#): > > Why is human suffering a bad thing? If I am stronger than a woman, does that make it acceptable to rape her? If I have the ability to capture and enslave some humans, doesn’t that show that I am a superior being and therefore deserve to work them to death? Please explain to me why people should have any moral responsibilities at all. Because I have a social contract with the woman. The woman has the power to hurt me, too, but chooses not to. I have the power to rape her but I choose not to. Since we’ve both sworn to not use our various weapons against each other, I have a moral responsibility to refrain from it. Mice, lions, and ants have made no such promise. They’ll “get me” if they’re given the chance. So I have no responsibility to refrain from “getting” them. Sometimes, in the course of human events, it becomes known that the social contract is off the table. The agreement not to hurt one another is no longer in effect. The two parties may then go at it with no moral judgment being placed upon them by others. Examples include everything from boxing to war. In these examples, two or more parties have notified the other that the “I won’t hurt you if you won’t hurt me” rule is no longer in effect, and that the infliction of suffering is imminent. Does anyone hold a boxer or MMA fighter morally culpable for the suffering of his opponent? No, because there is no agreement to avoid violence. Same goes for the pests- there’s no agreement there. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/87 "2010-06-16T18:06:16Z")
The difference being, in the case of MMA and any other combat sports where suffering pain is a neccessary feature, those involved have gone into the contest knowing full well what the other is going to try and do. Because an animal doesn’t have the consciousness to understand this process, does it then mean it would be okay to pit a brain-damaged adult against one with full mental faculties? Oh, but I forgot - humans have “rights”, because, well …they’re human! ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/88 "2010-06-16T18:42:00Z")
> [@GavinB](#): > > No, not really. I’ve already addressed this. > > It is different because the “pest” we are talking about are mammals with fully developed nervous systems who react to pain the same way as we do. Take a look at the link I added. I don’t care if they don’t react to pain the same way we do - **no** animal reacts to pain the same way as I do, since in my case the signals run through neural pathways that make me jump up and down and swear while cupping the thumb I’ve just whacked. When I see an animal do that, _then_ I’ll consider it in a comparable category with humans. (Yes, the swearing is required. Humans with constrained vocabularies are only given a pass because I’m feeling generous.) From a moral perspective the proof is in the pudding and the evidence of pain is in the reactions. I don’t base my morality on neurology. > [@GavinB](#): > > It’s a computer program created and written by humans. Code. What goes on in our brains and in animal brains is far more complicated than a computer program. So much that we don’t even know everything about how it works yet, unlike something like C++. And you and me’re just meat robots. I don’t care about complexity in this discussion - and if I did, then cats and dogs and dolphins aren’t complex enough to matter either. I would base this determination on the fact that their species hasn’t developed cell phones, which I feel is no more arbitrary a dividing point than yours. “They don’t react when poked”, now _that’s_ a dividing point with a firm underlying basis. But it alone doesn’t lead me to avoid hurting or killing such things. I’ll add, I don’t expect everyone to suddenly internalize my result-based views on creature pain, AI pain, _or_ morality. I’m just explaining my alternate perspective on the question at hand. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/89 "2010-06-16T19:38:45Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > The difference being, in the case of MMA and any other combat sports where suffering pain is a neccessary feature, those involved have gone into the contest knowing full well what the other is going to try and do. Because an animal doesn’t have the consciousness to understand this process, does it then mean it would be okay to pit a brain-damaged adult against one with full mental faculties? > > Oh, but I forgot - humans have “rights”, because, well …they’re human! There you go, human exceptionalism! ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/90 "2010-06-16T20:36:42Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Because an animal doesn’t have the consciousness to understand this process, does it then mean it would be okay to pit a brain-damaged adult against one with full mental faculties? > > Oh, but I forgot - humans have “rights”, because, well …they’re human! No, it’s not OK. But that’s because the brain-damaged adult hasn’t done anything to breach the peace. He hasn’t surrendered his right to the social contract. But let’s suppose that, like the rat, he was encroaching on your end of the social contract. Let’s say he was destroying your property (in a significant way) or beating you up. Can you respond with force in that scenario? Yes, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/91 "2010-06-16T22:16:00Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > That may be true, but remember, I haven’t argued that one “must” or “should” feel a certain way about a particular animal’s suffering. It’s just that animal suffering is not _objectively_ an evil thing. Provably wrong. You’re an animal. If someone – let’s say for the sake of keeping my posting privileges, Cecil Adams, not me – were to torture you, you’d object. I’m not asking if you’d object because I know you would. Golden rule. Anything you ware willing to inflict on others for your own convenience or laziness but do not wish to have inflicted on you is a pretty good working definition of evil. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/92 "2010-06-16T22:23:42Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Provably wrong. > > You’re an animal. > > If someone – let’s say for the sake of keeping my posting privileges, Cecil Adams, not me – were to torture you, you’d object. I’m not asking if you’d object because I know you would. > > Golden rule. Anything you ware willing to inflict on others for your own convenience or laziness but do not wish to have inflicted on you is a pretty good working definition of evil. This depends **entirely** on what you’re counting as “others”. I will happily tear a fruit off a tree and bite into it, but I’d be much oppressed if somebody did that to my hand. Yet I don’t think that makes makes me morally obliged to be an airitarian. (Though I wouldn’t want to be inhaled either, so…) **Chessic Senss** and I simply don’t assume that trees, bugs, mice, cats, dolphins, or monkeys necessarily count as “others”. I can’t speak for him but I think humans _do_, though I admit that’s merely my humanocentrism talking and nothing objective. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/93 "2010-06-16T23:21:48Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Provably wrong. > > You’re an animal. > > If someone – let’s say for the sake of keeping my posting privileges, Cecil Adams, not me – were to torture you, you’d object. I’m not asking if you’d object because I know you would. > > Golden rule. Anything you ware willing to inflict on others for your own convenience or laziness but do not wish to have inflicted on you is a pretty good working definition of evil. WTF are you talking about? If I object to being tortured, then animal cruelty is wrong? How the fuck do you get from the premise to the conclusion? Yeah, I’ve heard of the golden rule. No shit. Treat other **people** as you wish to be treated. What’s that got to do with animals in trash cans? I guess I better not cut down trees for firewood because I don’t want trees cutting me down for firewood. I better not slaughter cattle for steaks because I wouldn’t want to be slaughtered for steak. I better not step on an ant because I wouldn’t want ants stepping on me! This is why I stopped posting in GD. The hit&run style of nonsense that is so prevalent here. People read what they want, post some insane drivel tangentially related to it, and announce that you’re “provably wrong”. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![GavinB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ad7895/32.png) [@GavinB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GavinB)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/94 "2010-06-17T01:05:14Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > No it’s not. There is no reason to factor animal suffering into your decision making, at least not any further than how it makes you feel. My my, who is the selfish narcissist now? Why does it always have to be about how _you_ feel, what about the bloody animal that’s suffering because of you? I really hope you don’t have any pets. God knows how they’d be treated. > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > That’s precisely the reason that we DON’T have a moral responsibility to limit suffering. We’re the dominant species. Nature doesn’t have a “fair is fair” rule. The strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must. Cats toy with their prey. Lions sometimes hunt for fun. Whales bat their captures seals around like a volleyball before eating it. Why should humans have to feel remorse about doing even less than that? Because we know better than that. We are not house cats, or lions… we are human beings with a higher level of thinking who can rationalise such things. These animals either do it to survive, or are incapable of knowing that the animal is suffering. That is why comparing our actions to a dumb animal is ridiculous. What’s next, should we eat our babies too just because it’s a frequent occurrence in nature? > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > So break the cycle and answer the following: Why is animal suffering a bad thing to have in this world? You can’t use the premise “It’s immoral”. I said inflicting suffering is immoral, when it can be avoided. Suffering in itself, like pain, is not. Suffering and pain are natural physical and psychological responses to harmful stimuli - but you, as a human, understand that animals _can_ suffer from what we can do to them, unlike a lion chasing down a prey animal. Pain as a general rule, is a bad thing to experience on an individual level. Inducing it with absolutely no consideration to the animal’s welfare is not only immoral, but possibly illegal depending on where you live. ---
**Author:** ![GavinB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ad7895/32.png) [@GavinB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GavinB)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/95 "2010-06-17T01:16:15Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I don’t care if they don’t react to pain the same way we do - **no** animal reacts to pain the same way as I do, since in my case the signals run through neural pathways that make me jump up and down and swear while cupping the thumb I’ve just whacked. You don’t “care” because it dismisses your argument. Firstly, insects do not even have any pain receptors. > [@begbert2](#): > > From a moral perspective the proof is in the pudding and the evidence of pain is in the reactions. I don’t base my morality on neurology. No point taking a moral stance on inflicting pain on something that doesn’t even feel it as pain. > [@begbert2](#): > > I don’t care about complexity in this discussion - and if I did, then cats and dogs and dolphins aren’t complex enough to matter either. No, it’s entirely relevant. You compared playing computer games to harming an animal with the capacity to feel pain… that is such a ridiculous thing to say I don’t even know where to begin. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/96 "2010-06-17T04:16:24Z")
> [@GavinB](#): > > My my, who is the selfish narcissist now? Why does it always have to be about how _you_ feel, what about the bloody animal that’s suffering because of you? Because I’m the only thing that matters in this world. All my actions, from getting up in the morning to eating lunch to refraining from killing people, are determined by what I feel at the moment. And from that starting point, we can derive rules of behavior that prohibit killing other human beings. 99% of that reasoning is because those others have agreed not to kill me (the other 1% being something like “they produce goods I might need”). We can derive no such rule for our treatment of pests. So, what _about_ the animal? Why should I care if it suffers or not? You haven’t answered that question. Why am I morally obligated to limit or curtail its suffering? So the animal is (theoretically) dying a slow and painful death. This is bad why? > [@GavinB](#): > > I said inflicting suffering is immoral, when it can be avoided. Suffering in itself, like pain, is not. Suffering and pain are natural physical and psychological responses to harmful stimuli - but you, as a human, understand that animals _can_ suffer from what we can do to them, unlike a lion chasing down a prey animal. > > Pain as a general rule, is a bad thing to experience on an individual level. Inducing it with absolutely no consideration to the animal’s welfare is not only immoral, but possibly illegal depending on where you live. Right. Exactly like I said. You’ve got no basis for your statement that “causing pain is immoral”. You just keep restating it. Again, why should I care if the animal suffers or not? You just keep saying I should care because it’s immoral, and it’s immoral because I should care. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/97 "2010-06-17T04:22:41Z")
> [@GavinB](#): > > My my, who is the selfish narcissist now? This is the same kind of thing I warned you about earlier today. This is another warning: I don’t care how passionately you feel about this issue, you need to make your point without insulting other people. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/98 "2010-06-17T05:04:35Z")
Here’s a rather sick thought experiment. **Chessic Sense** , come over to my house. I have (hypothetically) a small child in the basement. The bones in her arms and legs have been shattered, so there is no chance that she might escape. She cannot hurt you. She will never be able to hurt you. Nor does she nor will she ever be capable of producing anything of use to you. Nor has she subscribed to (or even heard of) any social contract. In fact, I’ve raised her to be aggressive and hostile, despite her weakened condition. Believe me, she’d hurt you if she could. She’ll tell you that herself. (She can speak just fine, although her conversational skills seem to be limited to screaming “Let me go, you monster! I’ll kill you and everyone you know! Let me go! I hate humanity! I’ll kill everyone!”) Obviously, you have no reason whatsoever not to come poke her with sticks for fun. Even if you don’t feel like poking her with sticks, you obviously have no reason to object if my friends and I poke her with sticks, right? Likewise, I understand that at least one early European explorer was greeted by “hostile savages” shooting arrows at their ships. If not, I know that a previously unknown tribe of people in South America was recently seen shooting arrows at the plane that spotted them. These people surely didn’t enter into any sort of social contract with the people who “discovered” them. Even if they did, they let it be known right off the bat that those rules didn’t apply. They were prepared to use force and violence against outsiders if given the chance, and so there is no reason not to go in and slaughter or enslave them, right? Load up the smallpox blankets, I say! I mean, unless you think that we have some reason not to torture, kill or enslave each other _besides_ some alleged social contract. ---
**Author:** ![GavinB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ad7895/32.png) [@GavinB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GavinB)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/99 "2010-06-17T05:06:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is the same kind of thing I warned you about earlier today. This is another warning: I don’t care how passionately you feel about this issue, you need to make your point without insulting other people. Calling somebody a narcissist is not an insult… it is not like I am calling him a moron, or an idiot. He might very well be a narcissist. ---
**Author:** ![GavinB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ad7895/32.png) [@GavinB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GavinB)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887/100 "2010-06-17T05:12:52Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > So, what _about_ the animal? Why should I care if it suffers or not? You haven’t answered that question. Why am I morally obligated to limit or curtail its suffering? Because you created the situation where it’s suffering in the first place… have the decency to limit its suffering at least. > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > So the animal is (theoretically) dying a slow and painful death. This is bad why? Because callously inflicting suffering like that is bad. Speaks volumes of your personality and humanity if you think there’s nothing wrong from doing such things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-and-animals-labeled-as-pests/542887.md?page=6)