# Morality of Civil Wars **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175 "2011-03-18T17:48:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/1 "2011-03-18T17:48:32Z")
Suppose in 2011, a state or some states decided to secede from the union, over some real or perceived difference of opinion with the PTB on the federal level. They form their own country. The federal government can crush the secession, but at the cost of thousands and thousands of dead people. Is it moraly justified? On the one hand, thousands of dead people and massive suffering. On the other hand, what? So these guys won’t be part of the same country as the other states. Big deal. As backdrop, the US Civil War resulted in over 600K deaths, and other ruined lives of all sorts. Was it worth it? Of course there’sa backdrop of ending slavery. Maybe ending slavery is worth 600K deaths but other issues are not. Or maybe that wasn’t worth it either. [My main objective is not the Civil War here - it’s about a civil war over lesser issues, such as those we face today.] Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/2 "2011-03-18T17:51:26Z")
I have no problem with secession as such. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/3 "2011-03-18T17:52:56Z")
I should add, though, re the CW, that Abraham Lincoln felt - or at least claimed - that he was not fighting the war over slavery, but rather over what seems like a legalistic issue of the importance of the union, which would apply regardless of the underlying cause. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/4 "2011-03-18T17:55:17Z")
If thousands of people die it won’t be because of our coming in to bring them back into the Union, it’ll be because they seceded. So you shouldn’t be questioning whether enforcing the unity of the United States is moral, but whether seceding itself is moral. The answer to that question will depend on why they’re seceding. It’s like saying that the cops shouldn’t have cornered me at my home when it was discovered that I’d been bootlegging movies out of my basement, leading to my death. My death would be my responsibility for having resisted to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/5 "2011-03-18T17:57:34Z")
I disagree. Each actor has their own calculation. Suppose they were wrong for seceding, that on its own doesn’t mean that the feds can just ignore the consequences of breaking the rebellion and just blame it all on the rebels. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/6 "2011-03-18T17:57:53Z")
Because if one goes, other will follow it; and if a state can secede, why not a county, or a city? Or an individual? Secession will become the solution to any disagreement, and within a few years, instead of one big, prosperous nation, you’ll get a mess of dozens, hundreds or even thousands of bickering principalities and city-states - Renaissance Italy at the best, Somalia at the worst. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/7 "2011-03-18T18:01:05Z")
So long as they didn’t try to keep any national military assets, I don’t see any reason not to let any state that wished secede. (If North Dakota, Wyoming, and Montana seceded and tried to take all the ICBMs based on their soil (which is to say, all of them) with them, that would be problematic.) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/8 "2011-03-18T18:01:42Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I should add, though, re the CW, that Abraham Lincoln felt - or at least claimed - that he was not fighting the war over slavery, but rather over what seems like a legalistic issue of the importance of the union, which would apply regardless of the underlying cause. Right, and that is exactly what I disagree with. It should be noted that a war to hold authority over a section of people who want to go (and their land) is not the same kind of “civil war” as between factions each contending for control of the whole. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > If thousands of people die it won’t be because of our coming in to bring them back into the Union, it’ll be because they seceded. They _made_ you invade them. There was nothing else you could do. :dubious: > [@Alessan](#): > > Secession will become the solution to any disagreement… It will not. There are quite often good reasons for people and communities to want unions or partnerships of one sort or another with their neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/9 "2011-03-18T18:03:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Each actor has their own calculation. Suppose they were wrong for seceding, that on its own doesn’t mean that the feds can just ignore the consequences of breaking the rebellion and just blame it all on the rebels. Police can’t just let criminals do whatever they want because, well, it’d be a shame to throw such fine folk in jail. In order for society to function at all law and order has to be maintained. If the rebels’ cause is just then so be it, but that governments should just let their provinces secede is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/10 "2011-03-18T18:05:05Z")
Are they getting off our land? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/11 "2011-03-18T18:08:55Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Right, and that is exactly what I disagree with. > > It should be noted that a war to hold authority over a section of people who want to go (and their land) is not the same kind of “civil war” as between factions each contending for control of the whole. It might also be noted that Lincoln strongly felt that a small clique of individuals had railroaded the rest into secession, and history shows that (initially) that was very much the case. So in that case it wasn’t people who want to go, it was “a few people who want to make everybody else do what they want.” Subsequent events did shift the majority mindset toward secession, but all through the war there were significant numbers of loyalists in the South. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/12 "2011-03-18T18:11:31Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > It will not. There are quite often good reasons for people and communities to want unions or partnerships of one sort or another with their neighbors. With their neighbors, sure - but with the next town/neighborhood down the road? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/13 "2011-03-18T18:13:44Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Because if one goes, other will follow it; and if a state can secede, why not a county, or a city? Or an individual? Secession will become the solution to any disagreement, and within a few years, instead of one big, prosperous nation, you’ll get a mess of dozens, hundreds or even thousands of bickering principalities and city-states - Renaissance Italy at the best, Somalia at the worst. Who said they have to be bickering? Maybe they’ll be like the US and Canada. You’re suggesting we should start a war now because if we don’t then maybe we’ll have a war down the road. Hard to figure. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Police can’t just let criminals do whatever they want because, well, it’d be a shame to throw such fine folk in jail. In order for society to function at all law and order has to be maintained. You’re comparing secession to criminality, which begs the question. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/14 "2011-03-18T18:16:24Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Who said they have to be bickering? Maybe they’ll be like the US and Canada. > > You’re suggesting we should start a war now because if we don’t then maybe we’ll have a war down the road. Hard to figure. Start a war now or you’ll have \*lots \*of wars down the road. Makes perfect sense. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/15 "2011-03-18T18:18:44Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Subsequent events did shift the majority mindset toward secession… I think it’s safe to say that invading a seceded territory is not the way to make the people there feel good about joining back up. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/16 "2011-03-18T18:19:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Because if one goes, other will follow it; and if a state can secede, why not a county, or a city? Or an individual? Secession will become the solution to any disagreement, and within a few years, instead of one big, prosperous nation, you’ll get a mess of dozens, hundreds or even thousands of bickering principalities and city-states - Renaissance Italy at the best, Somalia at the worst. I seem to have missed the news of Bohemia and Moravia splitting up a couple years after the Czechs let the Slovaks leave. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/17 "2011-03-18T18:20:29Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You’re comparing secession to criminality, which begs the question. Unless the country in question has laws regarding the process of secession I’d assume that seceding is, in fact, criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/18 "2011-03-18T18:22:36Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Unless the country in question has laws regarding the process of secession I’d assume that seceding is, in fact, criminal. Yeah, but that’s a technicality. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/19 "2011-03-18T18:23:51Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I seem to have missed the news of Bohemia and Moravia splitting up a couple years after the Czechs let the Slovaks leave. Czechoslovakia was never a real country to begin with - it was a union of two nations with different languages, religions and histories. Maybe secession could have worked in the U.S. of 200 years ago, but it won’t in the unified nation-state America is now. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175/20 "2011-03-18T18:25:54Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Yeah, but that’s a technicality. All laws are technicalities. “Secession” consists of several of them - refusal to pay federal taxes, theft (of Federal property), weapons laws (when they found a military), laws limiting freedom of movement (when they set up borders)… the list goes on and on. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-of-civil-wars/575175.md?page=2)