# Morality . . . where do you think it comes from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2002, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808 "2002-09-27T02:36:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RadioWave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/91b2a8/32.png) [@RadioWave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadioWave)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2002, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/21 "2002-09-27T23:53:28Z")
> [@](#): > > If something is built doesn’t it have to have a Builder? Sounds like an inappropriate use for the watchmaker’s argument. In this case, societies have been built by millions of people over thousands of years with varying moralities resulting. In _the Iliad_ Achilles slays dozens of captured young boys, a deed presented as an act of great morality in his sorrow for his friend. The _Old Testament_ endorses slaying the inhabitants of captured towns {Deut 20:12-16} as an act of morality. Maybe in the resource short days of yore, it was necessary to slay your opponents after a war in order for a city-state to survive and was thus considered a morally allowable action. With modern weapons, its now economically possible to contain an enemy population and killing captives is no longer necessary and has hence, become an immoral act from our point of view. In cultures such as Chechnya where rebels believe they are fighting for a good cause and they have no convenient alternative, they still kill their captives. That just expands on what **effac** was saying that common morals are those traits taught to members of a society in order to promote the survival of the culture. When tribes have different needs, they develop different moralities. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2002, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/22 "2002-09-28T05:10:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\* > > I’d guess that the 9/11 guys wouldn’t have said they were doing good but I do suspect they would have been 100% that they were right. \*\* Yes, yes, but that’s not the issue at hand. Nobody denies that they THOUGHT they were doing the right thing. The question is whether they WERE doing right or wrong. If good and evil are truly nothing more than “subjective concepts” (as _effac3d_ attests), then we can’t really claim that the 9-11 terrorists WERE wrong, can we? After all, that judgment would be nothing more than your own _subjective_ concept, and you can scarcely bind anyone else to the same standard. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2002, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/23 "2002-09-28T05:15:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jabba \* > \*\*(selective quote) > > How then do you account for the self-evident fact that views of the deliberate killing of other humans vary ( and have varied) enormously over the geographical and historical range. \*\* I don’t think that’s a significant objection. For one thing, cultures may differ on the _particulars_ of when killing is justified, but I don’t think there’s any culture which claims that killing is absolutely A-OK. Ditto for rape, or any number of atrocities. The societies may differ on certain particulars, but I have yet to hear of any culture which claims that killing _per se_ is a morally neutral act. Second, the differences in behavior don’t automatically imply that morality is purely subjective. One could just as easily argue that certain cultures have chosen to act in ways that _violate_ morality. In fact, we often speak of the Nazi regime in this fashion. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2002, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/24 "2002-09-28T05:21:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > \*\* > I mean, we don’t kill people randomly for the same reason that we don’t run into walls: Societies whose members did so died out, and co-operative and unconcussed people flourished. \*\* What about killing people _outside_ the society, then? Or what about killing people in a non-random fashion? Heck, what if you could successfully exploit an entire race of people, easily identified by the color of their skin? Is this inherently wrong, or is it wrong only insofar as that plan may eventually backfire on you? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2002, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/25 "2002-09-28T05:27:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > \*\*I’ll bite, JThunder. I assery that what we consider ‘moral’ is \* entirely \* dependant on our evolution as a species. How you can disprove this without first finding an outside perspective to judge the morality of actions, I’d like to see. \*\* You’re the one who’s making this assertion. I’d say that the burden of proof rests firmly on your shoulders. In other words, it’s not up to others to discredit your assertion. It’s up to you to defend it – especially the part about morality being “entirely” dependent on one’s evolution as a species. ---
**Author:** ![AladyLikeNoOther](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@AladyLikeNoOther](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AladyLikeNoOther)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2002, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/26 "2002-09-28T05:34:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Logical Phallacy \* > **AladyLikeNoOther: Perhaps you should read effac3d’s post again, as I think together with mine, everything is explained quite nicely.** Subject thinking and feeling and it’s effects on issues of morality was explanied quite nicely. I asked you to explain how murder was actually “good,” not why people thought it was . . . > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Logical Phallacy \* > \*\* In many arabic countries, a large percentage (approaching the majority) of people believe what ossama bin laden did was very good, so why would they be any more or less correct than those of us in north america? Are our intellects superior to theirs? Are we ‘more’ moral than they are? Or just programmed differently? \*\* Again you point out that different people think and feel differently based upon their own subjective reasoning. But the question again is, “Is morality a man made concept designed to keep us in line or does it actually exist as part of our spiritual nature?” The fact that man is prone to reason based on his/her thoughts and feelings does not answer that question does it? Futhermore, I don’t think the definition of morality is being fully considered in this debate. So then, let’s define it here . . . Morality - That which is inherently "good’ or beneficial to all that exists and not just oneself. ---
**Author:** ![AladyLikeNoOther](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@AladyLikeNoOther](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AladyLikeNoOther)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2002, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/27 "2002-09-28T05:37:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\* > You’re the one who’s making this assertion. I’d say that the burden of proof rests firmly on your shoulders. > > In other words, it’s not up to others to discredit your assertion. It’s up to you to defend it – especially the part about morality being “entirely” dependent on one’s evolution as a species. \*\* Perhaps because of the evolution of our species, we are able to recognize what is moral and what is not? ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2002, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/28 "2002-09-28T13:00:04Z")
Well, I consider acts to be moral based on whether or not they’ll backfire, yes. And I don’t need an absolute moral code to which to hold other people. I have my own, subjective moral code. And I’m about to call the debate experts over here. Do you accept that, due to the way we evolved as a species, maiming means more to us than it would had we evolved from starfish? Of course, ‘proving’ whether or not morality evolved or was instilled, or an absolute that we discovefed, is damn hard. I think I can make a pretty good case that the majority of what we consider moral evolved on a genetic or mimetic basis. Can you show how it could be instilled or an absolute? I’ll bring the anthropic into this. Which is more likely: that the beliefs we hold are carved in metaphorical stone somewhere, and it’s jolly decent of the universe to put us in a position where we can express these beliefs, or that we, as a species and further as a society, learned the hard way what happens when murder and mayhem are unchecked? Not, proof, true, but evidence, certainly. Can you bring up evidence that moral absolutes exist? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2002, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/29 "2002-09-28T23:57:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > \*\*Well, I consider acts to be moral based on whether or not they’ll backfire, yes. \*\* In other words, it’s “moral” because you can get away with it. If you can’t get away with it, then it’s immoral. Good grief. > [@](#): > > \*\* > And I don’t need an absolute moral code to which to hold other people. I have my own, subjective moral code.\*\* In that case, you can’t really criticize anyone for their wrongdoings. After all, you have just said that your version of “morality” is merely subjective. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/30 "2002-09-29T02:04:51Z")
Well, yes, sort of. If someone does something blatantly against their own self-interest, like risk massive jail time over something stupid, then I would see that is immoral. And just because a viewpoint is subjective doesn’t mean that it’s not defensible, or back-upable with evidence. And I’ve still seen neither evidence for absolute moral platitud- absolute morals, nor any absolute morals. Would I steal if I could get away with it? Well, I haven’t so far. Given that I am comfortable right now, and certainly would not be if convicted, it’s not worth the risk. Incidentally, unless you can pull some moral absolutes out, you’ve shot yourself in the foot. After all, you can’t criticize me for my acts of self-interest, unless you can show me something better. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/31 "2002-09-29T02:15:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > \*\*Well, yes, sort of. If someone does something blatantly against their own self-interest, like risk massive jail time over something stupid, then I would see that is immoral. \*\* That doesn’t support your point, though. Nobody denies that wrongful acts CAN have unpleasant consquences. Your claim was much stronger though – namely, that this unpleasantness is the only thing which makes it immoral. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Incidentally, unless you can pull some moral absolutes out, you’ve shot yourself in the foot. After all, you can’t criticize me for my acts of self-interest, unless you can show me something better. \*\* First of all, you’re the one who claimed that there are no moral absolutes. Ergo, the burden of proof rests on you, as I am **repeatedly** forced to point out. Should one really keep making claims, and then foisting the burden of _dis_proof onto others? Besides, I think there are some fairly obvious moral absolutes. It is always wrong to commit rape for sheer pleasure, for example. (I add the “sheer pleasure” part because some skeptics petulantly exclaim, “Well, what if someone was forcing you to do it?” Good grief.) It is wrong to torture infants for one’s pleasure. It is wrong to hate Jews. It is wrong to kill someone for being a Jew. If you can think of any exceptions to these situations, I would love to hear them. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/32 "2002-09-29T06:32:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > **Besides, I think there are some fairly obvious moral absolutes. It is always wrong to commit rape for sheer pleasure, for example. (I add the “sheer pleasure” part because some skeptics petulantly exclaim, “Well, what if someone was forcing you to do it?” Good grief.)** Forcible female genital mutilation is at the very least _akin_ to rape (and maybe even more ghastly, if possible), and is still practiced in some parts of the world. So that can’t be an absolute. \*\* > [@](#): > > It is wrong to torture infants for one’s pleasure.\*\* Throughout history, a number of cultures have left babies, particularly female babies, exposed to the elements to die a slow death. So I guess the sanctity of infant life isn’t an absolute, either. \*\* > [@](#): > > It is wrong to hate Jews. It is wrong to kill someone for being a Jew.\*\* Sez you (and me too, obviously). The Nazis disagreed with you, as do their ilk that survive today. Got any more absolutes? That was kind of a fun way to kill two minutes. Quix ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/33 "2002-09-29T14:15:44Z")
Neato. Quix beat me to it. If there are moral absolutes, people everywhere need to follow, or at least recognize them. And, unless I misunderstand the way logic works, if someone claims that something exists which is not required to exist, and is not self-evident, then they shoulder burden of proof. Hell, I don’t recognize moral absolutes. It’s really stupid to rape, especially in an era of DNA testing and pepper spray. Occam’s razor supports me here: evolution is an observed phenomonon. (Close enough.) Moral absolutes are not. Look, if we drop this burden-of-proof nonsense, and let me remind you that you seem to be trying (and failing) to poke holes in my argument, rather than presenting your own? BTW, replace ‘moral absolutes’ with ‘invisible pink unicorn’ above, and see how silly you sound. ---
**Author:** ![monica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@monica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monica)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/34 "2002-09-29T19:02:21Z")
I’m not a religious person. I don’t believe in “evil.” I don’t do things because I think some deity would give me bonus points for doing so, or send me to Hell otherwise. I do, however, have strong morals. I don’t always follow my instincts, but I feel guilt when I do something I know is wrong. I think this is partly learned, and partly just a feeling I get, because I don’t want to hurt anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/35 "2002-09-29T19:55:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jabba \* > \*\*(selective quote) > > How then do you account for the self-evident fact that views of the deliberate killing of other humans vary ( and have varied) enormously over the geographical and historical range. Have people > (i) failed to receive God’s message > (ii) received God’s mesage but misunderstood it > (iii) received God’s message but deliberately chosen to ignore it? > ( of course different options may apply to people at different times and/or at different places). \*\* Hmm…maybe a combination of all three? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/36 "2002-09-29T20:13:30Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by quixotic78 \* > \*\* > Forcible female genital mutilation is at the very least akin to rape (and maybe even more ghastly, if possible), and is still practiced in some parts of the world. So that can’t be an absolute._\* I asked about rape, and you brought up another topic – genital mutilation. In logic, that is known as a _strawman argument_. (Besides which, it falsely assumes that those actions were indeed justified.) > [@](#): > > \*\* > Throughout history, a number of cultures have left babies, particularly female babies, exposed to the elements to die a slow death. So I guess the sanctity of infant life isn’t an absolute, either.\*\* No. The fact that a culture practiced it doesn’t make it justified. After all, a certain culture in the USA once practiced slavery. Does that make it justified, in any way? > [@](#): > > \*_Sez you (and me too, obviously). The Nazis disagreed with you, as do their ilk that survive today.\*_ Ah, but were the Nazis right or wrong? The fact that they disagreed is irrelevant. WERE they right in their disagreement? Or do you think that the mass slaughter of Jews is _really_ wrong-- that this condemnation is merely a matter of cultural bias? Or what about the mass slaughter of homosexuals? Would it be **wrong** for someone to attempt this deed, or would this merely be a subjective judgment, no more valid that the alternative? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/37 "2002-09-29T20:27:11Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by quixotic78 \* > \*\* > Forcible female genital mutilation is at the very least akin to rape (and maybe even more ghastly, if possible), and is still practiced in some parts of the world. So that can’t be an absolute._\* I asked about rape, and you brought up another topic – genital mutilation. In logic, that is known as a _strawman argument_. (Besides which, it falsely assumes that those actions were indeed justified.) > [@](#): > > \*\* > Throughout history, a number of cultures have left babies, particularly female babies, exposed to the elements to die a slow death. So I guess the sanctity of infant life isn’t an absolute, either.\*\* No. The fact that a culture practiced it doesn’t make it justified. After all, a certain culture in the USA once practiced slavery. Does that make it justified, in any way? > [@](#): > > **Sez you (and me too, obviously). The Nazis disagreed with you, as do their ilk that survive today.** Ah, but were the Nazis right or wrong? The fact that they disagreed is irrelevant. WERE they right in their disagreement? Or do you think that the mass slaughter of Jews is _really_ wrong-- that this condemnation is merely a matter of cultural bias? Or what about the mass slaughter of homosexuals? Would it be **wrong** for someone to attempt this deed, or would this merely be a subjective judgment, no more valid that the alternative? ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/38 "2002-09-29T21:09:49Z")
JThunder, you appear to be mistaking ‘subjective’ for ‘unsubstantiated’. And, I say that a strawman argument is better than none. I would point out (again) that you have yet to offer evidence for these universal moral principles. We agree that rape, for instance, is wrong. (Or really stupid, in my case.) Obviously, others do not. (Obviously because they commit rape.) If these absolute moral principles really are absolute, demonstrate this. And not by saying that no culture does act x. No one can by flapping their arms. That does not make flying via arm waving immoral. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2002, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/39 "2002-09-29T22:40:05Z")
I gotta say, **JThunder** , you’ve lost me. You say that “Besides, I think there are some fairly obvious moral absolutes.” What do you mean by “moral absolute”? I assumed that you meant that, if something is absolutely morally wrong, then no culture has ever engaged in it – that the cultures throughout history are the final arbiters of what’s moral and what’s not. I based this assumption on your statement that > [@](#): > > \*\*Cultures may differ on the particulars of when killing is justified, but I don’t think there’s any culture which claims that killing is absolutely A-OK. Ditto for rape, or any number of atrocities. The societies may differ on certain particulars, but I have yet to hear of any culture which claims that killing per se is a morally neutral act. \*\* Now you’re saying that, “The fact that a culture practiced it doesn’t make it justified.” So I’ve gotta ask you – what is the final arbiter of whether something is moral or not? Quix ---
**Author:** ![monica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@monica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monica)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2002, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808/40 "2002-09-30T01:56:10Z")
It’s almost instinctive to me to help other people…I can’t stand to see anyone hurting. Sure, this is the morally correct thing to do, but that’s not what I’m thinking when I run over to comfort someone. quixotic78 said, “Forcible female genital mutilation is at the very least akin to rape (and maybe even more ghastly, if possible), and is still practiced in some parts of the world. So that can’t be an absolute.” In the past, I have heard this referred to as “female circumcision.” Why is this considered dreadful, but male circumcision is not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morality-where-do-you-think-it-comes-from/129808.md?page=3)