# Morally who are you stealing from when you steal from a corperation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272 "2010-11-19T22:39:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/21 "2010-11-20T00:22:32Z")
The basic premise that a corporate entity is “basically a fantasy” is erroneous. It is a legal entity. When you steal from it, you steal from it. That is the legal answer. I believe it is also the moral answer - just because an entity isn’t human, doesn’t absolve you from your moral duty to observe its property rights. If you really want to ask what humans get harmed, it is all the stakeholders. If you’re Buddhist, it of course also harms you. If the concept of corporation did not exist, and say you stole a horse from 5 guys who jointly owned a horse, you stole from the 5 guys who owned the horse. Even if you argued that no man can ever really own a horse. never mind. Didnot see immediately preceding post. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/22 "2010-11-20T01:10:08Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The issue is that the state intermixed them and created a paradox. They created a person, yet no person exists. I don’t think you know what a paradox is. There’s no “paradox” here. Legally you’re stealing from a corporation. Morally, you are harming everyone, some more directly than others. Legal and moral aren’t the same thing. > [@](#): > > I contend that people who steal from corporations are innocent because there is no person they have taken from, so did not steal anything. Then you simply don’t understand the consequences of crime. Theft is a loss for everyone, even people who don’t work for, or own shares in, the store you stole the item from. Theft is a deadweight loss that harms society as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/23 "2010-11-20T01:24:00Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Does a 10% shareholder ownership mean that person can walk into a corporate store and take home 10% of the coffee makers? Yes… with a few formalities. The 10% shareholder convinces the majority of stockholders to liquidate the company. That 10% shareholder gets 10% of the liquidation proceeds (which would include the liquidation inventory sale of all those coffee makers.) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/24 "2010-11-20T03:51:48Z")
Corporate personhood is an elastic concept that means what the stockholders want it to mean. When it shields them from prosecution for corporate crimes, corporations are a legal person; when the corporation pays taxes, stockholders whine that they are being taxed twice on capital gains because the corporation is just an asset. They will fight like the devil to have it both ways, and feign incredulity when people call them on it. In their universe, a corporation has all the benefits of personhood, yet none of the liabilities. It is the perfect con. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/25 "2010-11-20T03:51:48Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The issue is that the state intermixed them and created a paradox. They created a person, yet no person exists. > > I contend that people who steal from corporations are innocent because there is no person they have taken from, so did not steal anything. Corporations are not people. Corporations are owned by people. My wife and I have a joint bank account. If someone steals $500 from our bank account, they have stolen $500 from my wife and from me. This is no less theft because they stole it from a bank account than if they stole it from my wallet, or my wife’s purse. Corporations don’t have any moral status, as a person or a group of persons do. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t theft to steal from their assets. Gym lockers don’t have any moral status either, but the guy who stole my credit card out of my gym locker was still stealing from me. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/26 "2010-11-20T04:05:03Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Corporate personhood is an elastic concept that means what the stockholders want it to mean. No, actually, it has pretty specific legal meaning, despite your straw man description of what some imaginary people might say and do. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/27 "2010-11-20T04:14:14Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > No, actually, it has pretty specific legal meaning, despite your straw man description of what some imaginary people might say and do. Perhaps you should explain that to **Shodan**. Many real people have made exactly the arguments I have expressed here. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/28 "2010-11-20T04:30:24Z")
I’m not in any confusion about the issue. **RickJay** is correct legally. You are not. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/29 "2010-11-20T04:55:20Z")
The shareholders collectively own all the assets of the corporation, as well as any net revenues those assets generate, so if someone steals an asset, or siphons off incoming revenue, the victims are the shareholders. I don’t see where anything was “relinquished” along the way. I suggest kanicbird, if he’s actually interested in anything approaching a serious discussion on the topic, do some very very basic reading on corporations and how they work. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/30 "2010-11-20T05:05:41Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > In their universe, a corporation has all the benefits of personhood, yet none of the liabilities. Well, actually it does indeed carry liabilities, it’s just that the extent of a shareholder’s individual liability is limited to what he actually invested. If he bought $500 in shares, he could lose all of it, but nobody can grab his house on top of that. Possibly there are some people who buy shares of companies and don’t actually understand this. The democratic nature of the stock market is that even idiots can participate. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/31 "2010-11-20T05:11:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Corporations are not people.n Corporations are people; they’re just not natural people like you or I. They’re artificial people. Legally, what makes something a person is that it has an independent legal existence. It can sue, be sued, enter into contracts, be liable, and so on. And corporations have that status under the law. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/32 "2010-11-20T09:37:51Z")
To take a slightly different tack - if you steal from a corporation, then you are stealing something certain corporate employees are responsible for, and they may lose their jobs as a result. IMHO, that’s far more immoral than causing the shareholders a 0.001 cent loss per share. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/33 "2010-11-20T12:51:06Z")
A corporation is a legal entity where a number of individuals (shareholders) have pooled together assets (their money) in order to acomplish some business end. Typically, their percentage of ownership is reflected in the amount of money they put into it (shares). In exchange for putting money in, they have an expectation that the overall value of the company will increase or that they will receive money in return (dividends) as the company conducts business. When you steal from a corporation, you are taking assets out of the corporation that does not belong to you. This reduces the total value of the company and proportionately decreases each of the shareholders assets. It’s like if you and your friends chip in to buy a car and I steal one of the tires. You still own the same percentage of car, but the car is worth less because it now needs a new tire. Comapnies are not “people”. They are a “legal person” which is a little different. They can’t marry or vote in elections. They are, however, afforded some legal rights that insulate the shareholders against losing more than the value of what they put in and certain legal actions. A corporation can’t murder someone. Individuals can and would be prosecuted under the appropriate law. In fact, a corporation that institutionally conspires to murder someone has a fair chance of being prosecuted under the RICO act as well as other charges. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/34 "2010-11-20T13:07:44Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The shareholders still own the same % of this entity, so no loss on their part. And the value of that percentage is at risk by definition. My vehicle is at risk of lockpicking; if you steal it, I still have 100% of (what’s left of) my possessions, so if you steal my vehicle, your’re not stealing from me?? :rolleyes: :smack: Start with a clearer, less biased, understanding of possession and corporations and rephrase your question! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/35 "2010-11-20T13:39:16Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > OK, I think I got what I wanted here. > > Morally it appears like a corporation from a individual’s standing is a part of themselves that has been isolated from the rest. basically dividing themselves into 2, those being 1: their personal self and 2: a combined entity with others. > > If it is moral to divide oneself to avoid legalities and the like or not is another issue I don’t understand your focus on the individual or a divided individual. Can’t you comprehend or relate to a group of people that have an interest in property? How about the UAW… or Green Peace… or Charlie Rangel’s reelection committee? ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/36 "2010-11-20T14:44:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > If so again I ask if a shareholder has any basis from suing someone from stealing from a corporation in proportion of their percentage of ownership? Yes. Via the corporation, which does it on their behalf. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/37 "2010-11-20T14:59:43Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Corporations are people; they’re just not natural people like you or I. They’re artificial people. Legally, what makes something a person is that it has an independent legal existence. It can sue, be sued, enter into contracts, be liable, and so on. And corporations have that status under the law. They don’t have moral status as people, which was what I was talking about. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/38 "2010-11-20T16:09:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > They don’t have moral status as people, which was what I was talking about. There’s no such thing as a “moral status”. What does that even _mean_ apart from you taking the words “moral” and “status” and inexplicably throwing them together? Many corporations certainly act in a more “moral” (or less “immoral”) way than many people, that’s for sure. Assuming that’s what you meant. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/39 "2010-11-20T16:23:15Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Perhaps you should explain that to **Shodan**. > > Many real people have made exactly the arguments I have expressed here. I’m sure that someone, somewhere, has bitched and whined about their taxes related to investment in a corporation. How does that constitute support of your claim that “Corporate personhood is an elastic concept that means what the stockholders want it to mean.”? It it nothing of the sort, no matter what some idiot might once have whined about. You’re presenting ignorance as fact. Legal or jurisitic personage is a old, carefully defined, and _absolutely necessary_ concept. What you claim you heard someone saying about their taxes doesn’t change the law. I heard someone claiming Barack Obama’s a Kenyan; does that make it so? This confusing over corporate personhood is baffling to me; I don’t understand why people don’t get what a legal person is. (And it’s not just corporations; unions, government departments, trusts, charities, and the like are all legal persons.) If those entities weren’t granted status as legal persons how could you ever have a contract with one? How could they have bank accounts? How could a company employ you? How could a charity apply for charitable status to start with? How could a university collect tuition or cut a student a check for a bursary? How could they have any legal standing of any kind? That’s why we have legal personage; so companies, charities and other such things can do things and be subject to law. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272/40 "2010-11-21T00:16:37Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’m sure that someone, somewhere, has bitched and whined about their taxes related to investment in a corporation. How does that constitute support of your claim that “Corporate personhood is an elastic concept that means what the stockholders want it to mean.”? Largely everyone, everywhere who has ever bitched about capitals gains taxes has done so on the basis of double taxation, arguing from exactly the position I expressed. Corporations are legal persons for purpose of collecting taxes, so objecting to taxes on capital gains and dividends on the basis of double taxation is specious at best. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morally-who-are-you-stealing-from-when-you-steal-from-a-corperation/561272.md?page=3)