# Morals/ethics and the Dachau Massacre **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 26, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660 "2011-09-26T15:52:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/21 "2011-09-27T19:44:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, they _should_ have been tried for war crimes. You don’t shoot prisoners. Doesn’t matter what they did. You hand them over to due process of law. > This doesn’t mean I don’t understand _why_ this might have happened, but that doesn’t make it right. In 2011, maybe. Not then. Not before Geneva Conventions and war movies and Twitter and Anderson Cooper. I were launched back in time and found myself in front of those men, I’d shoot 'em, too. Or worse. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/22 "2011-09-27T19:51:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ok, Ibn Warraq. My intention is not to debate whether the Dachau Massacre happened, but how to judge/handle the perpetrators. > > To clarify- assuming the account in the OP is accurate, should they have been tried for murder? But you can’t make that decision solely on abstract principles. You have to take specific circumstances into account and decide if the attempt to prosecute might do more harm than good. If there’s little hope of getting a conviction, and the prosecution would only undermine morale and increase tension, then it might very well be best for all concerned to let sleeping dogs lie. In this case, who would you get to testify? The inmates? Are they going to rat out the men who set them free? The other troops? But that guy they want to prosecute may have saved your life, or you may have saved his, and you may very well need to depend absolutely on each other the next time you’re in combat if you want a decent chance of surviving. You think they’re going to be eager to testify against their buds? You may have a general idea of what happened, but it may difficult or impossible to gather enough evidence against a specific person or persons to have a realistic expectation of getting a conviction. And the investigation and prosecution may tie up resources that are better used elsewhere. Decisions like this can’t be made solely on the basis of moral abstractions. Practical consequences have to be considered as well. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/23 "2011-09-27T19:53:51Z")
If something similar were to happen now, yes they should be tried. Back then, we used to bomb civilians indiscriminately. We may have not been Nazis, but we were monsters of a different sort. But you asked if MORALLY, we should have, so my answer yes, of course. Not to say the mitigating circumstances shouldn’t weigh in on the result of the trials, but tried for war crimes, they should have been. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/24 "2011-09-27T20:12:15Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > In 2011, maybe. Not then. Not before Geneva Conventions and war movies and Twitter and Anderson Cooper. > > I were launched back in time and found myself in front of those men, I’d shoot 'em, too. Or worse. Maybe it is wise to first read up on what actually happened there, before shooting off on how you would do the same. [http://www.scrapbookpages.com/dachauscrapbook/DachauLiberation/index.html](http://www.scrapbookpages.com/dachauscrapbook/DachauLiberation/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/25 "2011-09-27T20:12:18Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > In 2011, maybe. Not then. Not before Geneva Conventions and war movies and Twitter and Anderson Cooper. I don’t know where you get the idea that shooting prisoners being prohibited is a development of 2011, and that WW2 occurred before Geneva and its predecessors. [Convention between the United States of America and other powers, relating to prisoners of war. Signed at Geneva, July 27, 1929](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/geneva02.asp), and before that [Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague II); July 29, 1899 Ch. II, On Prisoners of War](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/hague02.asp#art4) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/26 "2011-09-27T21:13:11Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > I don’t know where you get the idea that shooting prisoners being prohibited is a development of 2011, and that WW2 occurred before Geneva and its predecessors. [Convention between the United States of America and other powers, relating to prisoners of war. Signed at Geneva, July 27, 1929](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/geneva02.asp), and before that [Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague II); July 29, 1899 Ch. II, On Prisoners of War](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/hague02.asp#art4) You’re correct, but normally when people refer to “the Geneva Convention” they mean the one signed in 1949. That said, executing POWs out of hand was certainly considered a war crime, which is why this particular incident was investigated by the military and it’s why the US military could and did prosecute people for murdering POWs. Obviously, there is a tremendous amount of dispute as to what happened, how many people were killed, and the circumstances surrounding it. That said, war has a tendency to cause many people to do horrible things and I can certainly understand why the men would have behaved that way. I remember lots of people watching the movie _Saving Private Ryan_, which had a number of instances of American soldiers murdering surrendering German soldiers who had not committed any war crimes and I don’t remember anyone being outraged that the men in the movie were portrayed as being heroes who represented all the US servicemen during WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/27 "2011-09-27T22:14:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’re correct, but normally when people refer to “the Geneva Convention” they mean the one signed in 1949. Most people who use “the Geneva Convention” are unaware that there are 4 of them. The 4th Convention of 1949 relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War was the only part actually added in 1949, the first 3 conventions of 1864, 1906 and 1929 were also revised and resigned in 1949 causing a bit of this confusion. For example, the first words of [Geneva Convention (III) Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War; August 12, 1949](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/geneva03.asp) > [@](#): > > The undersigned Plenipotentiaries of the Governments represented at the Diplomatic Conference held at Geneva from April 21 to August 12, 1949, for the purpose of revising the Convention concluded at Geneva on July 27, 1929 relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, have agreed as follows: ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/28 "2011-09-27T23:50:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I remember lots of people watching the movie _Saving Private Ryan_, which had a number of instances of American soldiers murdering surrendering German soldiers who had not committed any war crimes and I don’t remember anyone being outraged that the men in the movie were portrayed as being heroes who represented all the US servicemen during WWII. You know there’s a great scene in that movie that _somewhat_ reflects this situation. The Americans/Private Ryan are moving through the countryside and come across some Germans on top of a slight hill. They move up a cow pasture, an American gets shot; they kill one German and take the hill; the other German surrenders. About now the shot American bleeds out. The other Americans are pissed and desperately want to kill the captured German for killing their friend. Argument ensues: No one would ever know, he deserves it, he’s the enemy, ect ect ect. Tom Hanks, following the law, says no, then further says we don’t have time/resources to take him prisoner, so he lets him go. That’s, unfortunately, the absolutely correct thing, legally, to do. Perfectly fine to kill him before he surrenders, once he does though, you cannot kill him, and a set of laws now “protect” him since he is removed from the fight. Anyways, it was a great scene showing legalese (morality), without making any overt references to it, played out pretty well in a “real life” WWII situation. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/29 "2011-09-28T00:34:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Should the GIs and inmates have been tried for murder? My answer is no, but it’s hard to put into words why exactly I feel that way. Perhaps it’s because I can’t imagine how I might react were I to see such utter horror. Prosecute the \*inmates \*for murder? No. In fact, make that fuck no. In fact, make that fuck no, fuck that shit, and fuck anyone who thinks the inmates should be prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/30 "2011-09-28T01:24:50Z")
An investigation was made, resulting in charges being laid. The charges were dismissed from on high. All due process. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/31 "2011-09-28T02:31:15Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Given your tendency to make foolish, jingoistic statements. . . , **Qin** /née **CurtisLeMay**. Let’s leave the personal comments out of the discussion. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/32 "2011-09-28T04:03:33Z")
Murder is murder. Due process is even more important when dealing with unpopular and disliked people. That is one of the things diffrentiates civilised people from the Nazis. The inmates might have had an excuse. The officers and men who organised had none. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/33 "2011-09-28T06:00:57Z")
The horror was worse than US soldiers could have imagined. The stories of atrocities that had made their way to the Allies were considered exagerrations until they were witnessed and seen to be understated. It was absolutely wrong for soldiers to execute POWs, but not at all surprising under the circumstances. Prosecuting the soldiers would have been counterproductive under the circumstances, and at best would do nothing measurable to further the goal of justice. I cannot imagine how prosecution of the freed prisoners could be considered at all. I don’t think I would have killed Nazi POWs had I been there, but I would have been sorely tempted to provide the freed prisoners with guns. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/34 "2011-09-28T06:15:17Z")
It is so totally impossible for _anyone_ to say what they would have done if they were in that situation. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/35 "2011-09-28T07:16:07Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Due process is even more important when dealing with unpopular and disliked people.That is one of the things diffrentiates civilised people from the Nazis. In case you hadn’t noticed, the Jews were unpopular because the Nazis were racist fucksticks; the guards were unpopular _because they’d been murdering innocent people by the trainful_. So this “if you kill them, you’ll be just like them” spiel is a crock of shit. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/36 "2011-09-28T07:30:28Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > In 2011, maybe. Not then. Not before Geneva Conventions[snip] Nice try, but no. WWII happened _after_ the Third Geneva Convention of 1926. Which specifically states (my bolding)"[ > [@](#): > > Art. 2. Prisoners of war are in the power of the hostile Government, but not of the individuals or formation which captured them. > They shall at all times be humanely treated and protected, **particularly against acts of violence** , from insults and from public curiosity. > **Measures of reprisal against them are forbidden**. ]([http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/305?OpenDocument](http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/305?OpenDocument))There’s more in art. 60-65 about judicial proceedings. > [@](#): > > […]and Twitter and Anderson Cooper. So it’s only a crime if it gets reported? _Really_? > [@](#): > > I were launched back in time and found myself in front of those men, I’d shoot 'em, too. Or worse. That’s all very well, if that’s the kind of person you think you are. But you do _not_ get to pretend that it isn’t a war crime when you do it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/37 "2011-09-28T07:33:24Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > It is so totally impossible for _anyone_ to say what they would have done if they were in that situation. Really? You think I don’t have enough insight into my own motivations and morals to say I wouldn’t shoot an unarmed man? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/38 "2011-09-28T07:42:15Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > An investigation was made, resulting in charges being laid. The charges were dismissed from on high. All due process. Yeah. Just like My Lai…all above board.:rolleyes: Scratch that, at least My Lai led to 1 conviction ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/39 "2011-09-28T08:05:49Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > In case you hadn’t noticed, the Jews were unpopular because the Nazis were racist fucksticks; the guards were unpopular _because they’d been murdering innocent people by the trainful_. So this “if you kill them, you’ll be just like them” spiel is a crock of shit. So you want to be like Nazis? The difference between civilised people and Nazis is that civilised people ensure that even murdering scum like Concentration camp guards are treated according to law and not murdered on a whim and with impunity. Those men who were murdered most likely deserved all they got. But that does not make what happened to them; right. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/40 "2011-09-28T09:05:02Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > So you want to be like Nazis? Are you illiterate? I just said that what they did _doesn’t_ make them like Nazis. > [@](#): > > The difference between civilised people and Nazis is that civilised people ensure that even murdering scum like Concentration camp guards are treated according to law and not murdered on a whim and with impunity. No, the difference between civilised people and Nazis is that civilised people _don’t murder and oppress innocent people_. It’s not treating people according to the law that defines them - even when the Nazis _were_ treating the Jews [according to the law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws), they were still acting abhorrently. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660.md?page=3)