# Morals/ethics and the Dachau Massacre **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 26, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660 "2011-09-26T15:52:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/61 "2011-09-29T13:36:04Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Steadfastness is only a good thing when you’re _not_ the xenophobic assholes who are trying to take over the world. “winners write the history books”, etc. For instance, what about Russian steadfastness in WWII - admirable or not? In light of the subsequent history of the USSR vis-a-vis territorial expansion and genocide? > [@](#): > > There is no hypocrisy here even if you don’t recognise a difference. It wasn’t just or even mainly hypocrisy I was pointing out. There was nothing _uniquely_ evil or inhuman or alien about the Japanese in WWII. Really. They committed horrible atrocities, no argument there. And they were tenacious in their resistance (sometimes suicidally so), again, no argument there, either. But they were not _unique_ about that, either. It hearkens back to the war-era racism of cartoonish “beastly” “Japs”, to vilify the Japanese resistance to defeat as particularly “wicked” or “stubborn” - loaded terms which don’t actually add anything to the argument about the use of the Bomb, but act only as an appeal to emotion. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/62 "2011-09-29T13:49:31Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > You have obviously not read up about the event in question . > > 1. Dachau was not an extermination camp, like Auschwitz. There was no “shoving of people into ovens”. This was a camp for the internment of political prisoners, resistance fighters and slave labour (for which there were seperate sub-camps). No, they just shipped them [off to Linz to be euthanized](http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005214). So much better than killing them on site. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > There is no credible evidence that the gas chamber in Barrack X was used to murder human beings. Instead, prisoners underwent “selection”; those who were judged too sick or weak to continue working were sent to the Hartheim “euthanasia” killing center near Linz, Austria. Several thousand Dachau prisoners were murdered at Hartheim. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/63 "2011-09-29T15:12:00Z")
Summary execution of prisoners is wrong and illegal. The massacre, if it occurred, should have been treated as a crime. That said, I agree with the OP that there’s a strong case that the perpetrators were acting under temporary insanity caused by previous crimes committed by the victims. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/64 "2011-09-29T15:27:04Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > You have obviously not read up about the event in question . > > 1. Dachau was not an extermination camp, like Auschwitz. There was no “shoving of people into ovens”. This was a camp for the internment of political prisoners, resistance fighters and slave labour (for which there were seperate sub-camps) It wasn’t a ‘final destination’ type camp like Auschwitz, no, but they did ‘exterminate’ the sick and conduct horrific medical experiments. The conditions were _horrible_. Talk about violating the Geneva Conventions. Please don’t make Dachau into something it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/65 "2011-09-29T15:32:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “winners write the history books”, etc. For instance, what about Russian steadfastness in WWII - admirable or not? In light of the subsequent history of the USSR vis-a-vis territorial expansion and genocide?It wasn’t just or even mainly hypocrisy I was pointing out. There was nothing _uniquely_ evil or inhuman or alien about the Japanese in WWII. Really. They committed horrible atrocities, no argument there. And they were tenacious in their resistance (sometimes suicidally so), again, no argument there, either. But they were not _unique_ about that, either. It hearkens back to the war-era racism of cartoonish “beastly” “Japs”, to vilify the Japanese resistance to defeat as particularly “wicked” or “stubborn” - loaded terms which don’t actually add anything to the argument about the use of the Bomb, but act only as an appeal to emotion. I disagree, sort of. In an earlier post, I said we _weren’t much better_ but that was a bit of an overstatement. I should’ve said we _weren’t innocent_. No, there’s nothing so inherent about being Japanese that makes you evil, but it’s arguable that culture and religion play a part in your international politics and war policies. To me, all parties in WWII (or any conflict) have to them a unique nature. Your argument sounds like the same thing would’ve happened with Americans had we been given the chance. I disagree. While Americans did (and do) commit ‘war crimes’ such as rape, theft, etc., I really do believe the differences boil down to how we view things - namely (and I hate to sound like a soundbite here) our ingrained principles of liberty. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/66 "2011-09-29T16:01:45Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Your argument sounds like the same thing would’ve happened with Americans had we been given the chance. No, that’s not my argument. Different things would (and did) happen with Americans and their Allies- Taking Japanese trophy skulls, for instance, or collecting their ears or teeth. Shooting unarmed prisoners in their tens of thousands. That sort of thing. > [@](#): > > I disagree. While Americans did (and do) commit ‘war crimes’ such as rape, theft, etc., I really do believe the differences boil down to how we view things - namely (and I hate to sound like a soundbite here) our ingrained principles of liberty. Again, this boils down to special pleading for some uniqueness to the Japanese psyche. There’s no “ingrained principles of liberty” that are uniquely American. There’s no overarching collectivist imperative to Japanese culture that completely overwrites individuality, either. That’s just racist propaganda. I’m not arguing that there aren’t cultural differences between America and Japan, far from it. But those cultural differences _don’t_ erase the essential humanity of both sides, which is what this level of special pleading for the unique evil of the WWII Nazis and Japanese amounts to. And again, notice the subtle racist overtones - some are perfectly willing to allow that it was Nazis, not all Germans, who committed the worst atrocities in the West, but we make no such distinction for the Japanese. There’s no equivalent in popular culture for the SS/Wermacht distinction, so of course _all_ Japanese soldiers are murderous brutes. Never mind that the Wermacht did its fair share of butchering, actually, and many hundreds of thousands of Japanese soldiers just fought and died without doing anything remotely resembling atrocity. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/67 "2011-09-29T16:40:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There’s no “ingrained principles of liberty” that are uniquely American. Incarceration Rates: [File:Incarceration Rates Worldwide ZP.svg - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Incarceration_Rates_Worldwide_ZP.svg) ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/68 "2011-09-29T17:16:10Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Incarceration Rates: [File:Incarceration Rates Worldwide ZP.svg - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Incarceration_Rates_Worldwide_ZP.svg) Which is a recent phenomenon. Mid 40’s to early 50’s rates were very close to current European rates. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/69 "2011-09-29T17:41:57Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > It wasn’t a ‘final destination’ type camp like Auschwitz, no, but they did ‘exterminate’ the sick and conduct horrific medical experiments. The conditions were _horrible_. Talk about violating the Geneva Conventions. > > Please don’t make Dachau into something it wasn’t. What?? _Me_ making it into something it wasn’t? Next you’ll accuse me of whitewashing what went on in Dachau. My point, which keeps being skipped, is that they murdered THE WRONG PEOPLE!!! They didn’t kill “Nazi scum that where just before shoving Jews into the oven”. Again, the original guards and staff had fled! They killed newly posted guards and WOUNDED combat soldiers. This is _exactly_ why there are rules and why there must be due course of law. Do you want your police just shooting anyone, they think are criminals, when they arrive on the scene? No, you want them to make _arrests_ and let a court decide what should happen to them. _That_ is the civilised way. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/70 "2011-09-29T18:02:46Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > This is _exactly_ why there are rules and why there must be due course of law. And this is exactly what took place. The IG investigated and reported, which resulted in charges being laid where appropriate, which the appropriate authority (Patton) then dismissed. That is no different than a prosecutor using prosecutorial discretion to not proceed with a charge, and is very similar to an executive granting clemency. Whether or not one agrees with the outcome, and whether or not one agrees with the process, the simple fact remains that there was a formal legal process process and it was followed. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/71 "2011-09-29T18:14:54Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > And this is exactly what took place. The IG investigated and reported, which resulted in charges being laid where appropriate, which the appropriate authority (Patton) then dismissed. > > That is no different than a prosecutor using prosecutorial discretion to not proceed with a charge, and is very similar to an executive granting clemency. > > Whether or not one agrees with the outcome, and whether or not one agrees with the process, the simple fact remains that there was a formal legal process process and it was followed. I think Latro meant that the Nazis should have received due process before any decision to execute them was made; he wasn’t saying that the prisoners and GIs who killed them were denied that. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/72 "2011-09-29T19:46:46Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > It wasn’t a ‘final destination’ type camp like Auschwitz, no, but they did ‘exterminate’ the sick and conduct horrific medical experiments. The conditions were _horrible_. Talk about violating the Geneva Conventions. Hang on now, you’ve claimed all this happened before the Geneva Conventions. > [@](#): > > In 2011, maybe. Not then. Not before Geneva Conventions and war movies and Twitter and Anderson Cooper. Care to admit that you were entirely wrong about that before now using it to bolster another argument? I’m still waiting on you to provide any evidence whatsoever that we > [@](#): > > we regularly violated as a matter of policy Either Convention Between the United States of America and Other Powers, Relating to Prisoners of War; July 27, 1929 (Geneva 3) or Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague II); July 29, 1899 Chapter II On Prisoners. Again, since violating occurred regularly as a matter of policy you surely will have no problem finding a cite for it. Or you could do the decent thing and admit that you were 100% incorrect there as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/73 "2011-09-29T20:01:28Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > And this is exactly what took place. The IG investigated and reported, which resulted in charges being laid where appropriate, which the appropriate authority (Patton) then dismissed. I’ve been loathe to point out who dismissed the charges and have to play devil’s advocate, but Patton was really not the right man to be doing this. During the invasion of Sicily 71 Italian and 2 German POWs were killed in two separate instances following the capture of Biscari airfield. When told about this by his subordinate Omar Bradley, he recorded his reaction in his diary: > [@](#): > > I told Bradley that it was probably an exaggeration, but in any case to tell the Officer to certify that the dead men were snipers or had attempted to escape or something, as it would make a stink in the press and also would make the civilians mad. Anyhow, they are dead, so nothing can be done about it. Bradley refused his advice and charges were brought. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/74 "2011-09-29T23:23:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, that’s not my argument. Different things would (and did) happen with Americans and their Allies- Taking Japanese trophy skulls, for instance, or collecting their ears or teeth. Shooting unarmed prisoners in their tens of thousands. That sort of thing. Shooting tens of thousands of unarmed prisoners? I won’t dispute that American troops shot some Japanese POW’s, but tens of thousands of them? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/75 "2011-09-29T23:42:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And again, notice the subtle racist overtones - some are perfectly willing to allow that it was Nazis, not all Germans, who committed the worst atrocities in the West, but we make no such distinction for the Japanese. There’s no equivalent in popular culture for the SS/Wermacht distinction, so of course _all_ Japanese soldiers are murderous brutes. Never mind that the Wermacht did its fair share of butchering, actually, and many hundreds of thousands of Japanese soldiers just fought and died without doing anything remotely resembling atrocity. Its hard to see Bismarck or Frederick the Great approving of Hitler’s foreign policy not to mention the Holocaust. Hitler’s Nazism was a break with tradition in many areas (though not all) while Japan’s bushidoism was a fanatical appeal to tradition. > [@MrDibble](#): > > My bolding:Not at all like the admirable iron-willed steadfastness and will of e.g. the Brits in the Blitz. No, the _Japanese_ national will, that’s stubborn and wicked. No doubt inscrutable, too. > It’s not like the Japanese had made moves towards surrender before the bombs at all, or anything. Or like the Russian entry into Manchuria was a big factor. The reports are conflicting but even after the a-bombs and the Russian entry into the war there still were officers who tried to launch a coup to stop the surrender from happening. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/76 "2011-09-30T01:47:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Shooting tens of thousands of unarmed prisoners? I won’t dispute that American troops shot some Japanese POW’s, but tens of thousands of them? I thought that a major issue was that so few Japanese were willing to surrender, and would rather have fought to the death. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/77 "2011-09-30T01:58:12Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > You have obviously not read up about the event in question . Way to miss the point I was making. War ‘rules’ make one thing legal and not allow another even though the chances of being correct in the latter case are higher than in the former. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/78 "2011-09-30T07:36:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Shooting tens of thousands of unarmed prisoners? I won’t dispute that American troops shot some Japanese POW’s, but tens of thousands of them? Not Americans - [their Allies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre). It was the Americans doing the tooth-pulling and skull-boiling, though. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Its hard to see Bismarck or Frederick the Great approving of Hitler’s foreign policy not to mention the Holocaust. You really think either of those guys would be opposed to territorial expansion? Or give a fig for Jews? > [@](#): > > Hitler’s Nazism was a break with tradition in many areas (though not all) German - no, better to say European - Antisemitism was nothing new. Nor was the idea of slaughtering Jews, that was an old occupation. All the Nazis brought to it was a mechanical efficiency. The Holocaust was certainly a significant genocide, but it was hardly _sui generis_. > [@](#): > > while Japan’s bushidoism was a fanatical appeal to tradition. [_Made-up_](http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_friday_0301.htm) tradition. The term “bushido” gets co-opted in the 1880s to become something it really wasn’t, historically (I find a close parallel is the Victorian re-invention of the Age of Chivalry). Again, just because a word gets quite deliberately co-opted by the State for propaganda purposes, does not render it indicative of any actual cultural reality. > [@](#): > > The reports are conflicting but even after the a-bombs and the Russian entry into the war there still were officers who tried to launch a coup to stop the surrender from happening. Yes - the cadre of people in power who were going to lose their power (and probably be tried for war crimes) - you can see how they might have had more realistic, immediate motivations beyond “bushido”, right? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/79 "2011-10-01T03:59:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not Americans - [their Allies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre). It was the Americans doing the tooth-pulling and skull-boiling, though.You really think either of those guys would be opposed to territorial expansion? Or give a fig for Jews Certainly they did both were tolerant of other religions and considered the Jewish people to be just subjects like anybody else-virtually any statesman from the 19th Century would have been horrified by the Holocaust-they were horrified by the Terror in France and this was exponentially bloodier, and eviller. And while Friedrich the Great and Von Bismarck wanted territorial expansion they were intelligent enough to realize that going to war against practically the rest of the world wasn’t the way to go about it. > [@](#): > > German - no, better to say European - Antisemitism was nothing new. Nor was the idea of slaughtering Jews, that was an old occupation. All the Nazis brought to it was a mechanical efficiency. The Holocaust was certainly a significant genocide, but it was hardly _sui generis_.[ I believe it has been pointed out that while the old religious anti-Semites such as the Inquisition or Luther simply wanted Jews to convert and didn’t mind converts the new anti-Semites were against and hated anybody with Jewish ancestry. > [@](#): > > _Made-up_]([InYo: Bushido or Bull: Friday](http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_friday_0301.htm)) tradition. The term “bushido” gets co-opted in the 1880s to become something it really wasn’t, historically (I find a close parallel is the Victorian re-invention of the Age of Chivalry). Again, just because a word gets quite deliberately co-opted by the State for propaganda purposes, does not render it indicative of any actual cultural reality.Yes - the cadre of people in power who were going to lose their power (and probably be tried for war crimes) - you can see how they might have had more realistic, immediate motivations beyond “bushido”, right? You mean like all the Japanese soldiers who died in kamikaze attcks? I don’t see any self-interest there. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660/80 "2011-10-01T04:41:33Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Its hard to see Bismarck or Frederick the Great approving of Hitler’s foreign policy not to mention the Holocaust. Maybe not the Holocaust, but considering Bismarck’s machinisms in foreign policy, I doubt he would have had THAT much of a problem. Do you know anything at all about how the German Empire was formed? Mr. “Blood and Iron” himself? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-ethics-and-the-dachau-massacre/597660.md?page=5)