# Morals in Jewish Culture/Religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2004, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403 "2004-05-21T18:39:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/21 "2004-05-22T02:27:56Z")
slight aside, I suppose… Every religion, in some way or another, has the Golden Rule – i.e., “do unto others…” Some religions that are in no way connected to Judaism, and indeed had no influence from Judaism, share this common goal. Now this is not to bash Judaism AT ALL. I, personally, think it is quite a lovely religion. But I find it hard to believe that the Golden Rule “originated” from Judaism, when the evidence seems to suggest otherwise. Which is actually quite nice if you think about it. Because in some way or another, despite our religious beliefs (or lack thereof), this “rule” has made its way naturally into (what ought to be) our general system of morality. In other words, be nice to each other, dammit! (And yes, of course ALL religions have zealots/extremists who hijack it for their own crazy purposes. Just wish folks wouldn’t do that with perfectly pleasant threads…) ---
**Author:** ![rackensack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@rackensack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rackensack)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/22 "2004-05-22T03:56:53Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Well, there ARE forms of Christianity, such as her Catholicism itself (World’s largest single Christian grouping) that require you to go thru a process of _catechesis_ in which you are “educated” in the ways of the new faith before you make it all the way in. This does sort of get into the nitpicking details, but I was careful and deliberate in how I expressed myself above. Even the Roman Catholic church, while it does expect converts to complete the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults or RCIA (which, like the period of study expected of a convert to Judaism, takes a varying amount of time depending on the individual, with a year or more being typical), nevertheless recognizes those who have been baptized and profess the Christian faith as Christians, even if they are not yet fully admitted to the Roman Catholic church. From the description of the “catechumenate” period in Thomas Sharbach’s [page on the RCIA:](http://members.aol.com/tombecket/ts_rcia.htm) > [@](#): > > The word catechumenate means “time of serious study” and inquirers who become catechumens – those who have not been baptized – or candidates – baptized Christians who have not been confirmed as Roman Catholics – join us at Sunday Mass during the Liturgy of the Word, after which they move to the parish house to continue reflecting on the Scriptures. Note the distinction between “catechumens” – those who have not been baptized – and “candidates”, and the explicit descrption of candidates as “baptized **Christians** who have not been confirmed as Roman Catholics”. See also [this page](http://www.udayton.edu/~campmin/rcia/becoming-a-catholic.htm#catechumen) specifically on this topic at the University of Dayton web site. Contrast with Judaism, where (at least in the Orthodox and Conservative movements) a prospective convert is not considered to be a Jew until all of the prescribed steps have been completed. One who lives according to Jewish law in every respect except for having completed these steps may be respected as a _ger tzedekh_, a righteous Gentile, but he is not a Jew under Jewish law. ---
**Author:** ![rackensack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@rackensack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rackensack)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/23 "2004-05-22T04:10:09Z")
> [@leander](#): > > Every religion, in some way or another, has the Golden Rule – i.e., “do unto others…” Some religions that are in no way connected to Judaism, and indeed had no influence from Judaism, share this common goal. > > Now this is not to bash Judaism AT ALL. I, personally, think it is quite a lovely religion. But I find it hard to believe that the Golden Rule “originated” from Judaism, when the evidence seems to suggest otherwise. The general notion of treating other people as you would want to be treated is indeed widespread among world religions and probably predates Judaism, but certainly the specific formulation of it as reflected in Christian teaching originated in Jewish law – Jesus was quoting (almost certainly consciously) from Leviticus when he instructed his followers that they should love their neighbor as themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/24 "2004-05-22T04:23:20Z")
> [@rackensack](#): > > Note the distinction between “catechumens” – those who have not been baptized – and “candidates”, and the explicit descrption of candidates as “baptized **Christians** who have not been confirmed as Roman Catholics”. See also [this page](http://www.udayton.edu/~campmin/rcia/becoming-a-catholic.htm#catechumen) specifically on this topic at the University of Dayton web site. Contrast with Judaism, where (at least in the Orthodox and Conservative movements) a prospective convert is not considered to be a Jew until all of the prescribed steps have been completed. That’s a different situation, though, it seems. A “candidate” is a member of another Christian denomination or sect that is becoming Catholic, but even before he starts his conversion to Catholicism, he’s still Christian under Catholic law. He’s not converting to Christianity, only becoming a member of the Catholic denomination. That’s different than a gentile becoming a Jew. It would be more like a Reform Jew becoming Orthodox, and there’s no conversion process for a Reform Jew to become Orthodox…he just has to live according to Orthodoxy (and learn enough about it so that he can). ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/25 "2004-05-22T04:51:09Z")
> [@rackensack](#): > > The general notion of treating other people as you would want to be treated is indeed widespread among world religions and probably predates Judaism, but certainly the specific formulation of it as reflected in Christian teaching originated in Jewish law – Jesus was quoting (almost certainly consciously) from Leviticus when he instructed his followers that they should love their neighbor as themselves. Absolutely, without question. I never understood why many Christians (and Jews, I suppose) feel the need to dismiss the many wonderful connections between the two religions. I’m afraid it probably boils down to that wise old ‘argument’, “Mine is right, so yours must be wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/26 "2004-05-22T07:40:12Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Frankenstein Monster, thank you for waiting 16 posts to ruin my thread with some generic Israel bashing. OK, well, I can’t say I didn’t anticipate my post being interpreted this way. That’s why I wrote “I hope it’s not inappropriate…” I apologize for my inappropriate post. If any moderator can delete my posts, please do. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/27 "2004-05-22T12:45:06Z")
Excellent thread, all. Unless it would be a terrible breach of STMB etiquette, perhaps **emack** could turn over his keyboard to his girlfriend so she could respond/contribute directly? There may be some more specific questions/argument she may have that he is not aware of. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/28 "2004-05-22T12:49:44Z")
Oh, and while we’re at it, I recall hearing/reading about Jewish judicial practices. Specifically that the purpose of the Sanhedrin was not so much to prove guilt, but to prove innocence, the idea (as I remember), that if the accused was guilty, G-d would ensure punishment. Did I remember this correctly? I think it bears directly on the **OP** ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/29 "2004-05-22T13:33:49Z")
have your girlfriend read this & then discuss it with her. Ethical Monotheism by Dennis Prager [http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/mono.html](http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/mono.html) ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/30 "2004-05-22T19:37:44Z")
Thinking some more on the **OP** I think that **emack** ’s girlfriend does not see an overt framework of morality in Judaism because she’s looking for signs that she is familiar with; overt displays of generousity in the name of Jesus or the church, public denouncement over such amoral behavior as homosexuality, constant reminders of the wages of sin a la Jack Chick, for example. As has been stated above, Judaism is a religion of law. You act in a moral manner because _it’s the law_, not to earn brownie points. As a result, I think that Jews have a very refined sense of morality, especially in the area of social justice. They just tend to not flap their lips about it or force a link between their morality and their religion. As an example, look at the American civil rights movement- many of the white activists involved were Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![SSgtBaloo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@SSgtBaloo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSgtBaloo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/31 "2004-05-22T20:26:38Z")
> [@leander](#): > > slight aside, I suppose… > > Every religion, in some way or another, has the Golden Rule – i.e., “do unto others…” Some religions that are in no way connected to Judaism, and indeed had no influence from Judaism, share this common goal. > > Now this is not to bash Judaism AT ALL. I, personally, think it is quite a lovely religion. But I find it hard to believe that the Golden Rule “originated” from Judaism, when the evidence seems to suggest otherwise. I would like to suggest that the “Golden Rule” is rather like the Noachide Laws, in that they predated Judaism. I suggest also that they were inspired by G-d, who does not wish anyone to be ignorant of their basic obligations to each other. After all, there is widespread knowledge of the “Golden Rule” (or a local cultural equivalent) in, I should say _most_ (if not all) cultures. –SSgtBaloo ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/32 "2004-05-23T02:28:23Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > Oh, and while we’re at it, I recall hearing/reading about Jewish judicial practices. Specifically that the purpose of the Sanhedrin was not so much to prove guilt, but to prove innocence, the idea (as I remember), that if the accused was guilty, G-d would ensure punishment. Did I remember this correctly? I think it bears directly on the **OP** WRT criminal matters, there is no prosecutor in Jewish law. In short, two witnesses are required to bring a defendant to court. In capital cases, a panel of 23 judges determines the guilt or innocence of the accused, in non-capital cases, a panel of 3. The witnesses are questioned extensively by the judges, both separately and together, as the judges try to determine the truth of the matter. If they are found to be lying, or if their testimony contradicts one another, their testimony is thrown out. In addition, the accused had to be forwarned that his crime was a capital crime and was punishable by the method of execution specified. Furthermore, the criminal would have to have responded by saying (to the effect of ) “I understand but am going to commit this crime anyway.” Only in such a way could it be 100% clear that the crime was being done in a premeditated and purposeful manner (the only way that a crime could be subject to capital punishment). In capital cases, after hearing the evidence, the judges retire to debate the matter. A judge may advocate either position (guilt or innocence) in the debates. However, once a judge advocates for innocence, he can no longer switch during the debates and argue for guilt (although when it comes time to vote, he can vote either way). A judge who was arguing for conviction, however, may switch and advocate for innocence. When it is time for the judges to vote on the matter, a guilty verdict requires a majority plus one (i.e. a minimum of 13 of the 23 judges – a vote of 12-11 is an acquital). In addition, a unanimous vote of guilt also results in an acquital. If it appears that a conviction is imminent, the judges put off the matter until the next day, so as to give them time to think the matter through and perhaps find grounds for acquittal. On the next day, the judges would again convene and fast the entire day. They would again debate the matter further before taking a vote. If they vote to convict, then the accused in convicted. Before execution, a public announcement is made specifying the accused, the crime, and the details and asking anyone who has information which may saved the accused to come forward. Indeed, even the accused himself can present new information and re-open the case any number of times (provided that his arguments are not frivilous). Lastly, the execution site was located a ways out of the town so as to allow for time for any possible additional evidence to be heard. There were people stationed along the way on hilltops with flags who would signal one another from the courthouse to the execution site to possibly stop the execution if new information came to the court’s attention. In general, the judges were required to try to find any grounds possible (within reason of course) to prevent the execution. The end result of this is that there is a statement in the Talmud that a court which executes someone once in seven years (and according to some opinions, once in seventy years) was considered a “murderous court.” Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/33 "2004-05-23T02:39:51Z")
> [@leander](#): > > slight aside, I suppose… > > Every religion, in some way or another, has the Golden Rule – i.e., “do unto others…” Some religions that are in no way connected to Judaism, and indeed had no influence from Judaism, share this common goal. > > Now this is not to bash Judaism AT ALL. I, personally, think it is quite a lovely religion. But I find it hard to believe that the Golden Rule “originated” from Judaism, when the evidence seems to suggest otherwise. Well, there are religions that have other rules such as "don’t murder, don’t steal, etc., that also have no connection to Judaism as well. Such laws are “common sense” laws that one could reasonably come up with on thier own (as opposed to, for example, the law regarding wearing wool-linen mixtures). It’s certainly within the realm of possibility that other religions/civilizations came up with the idea of “don unto others…” independently of the Jewish religion. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/34 "2004-05-23T12:45:24Z")
Thanks, **Zev**. Edifying and readable as usual. One thing that struck me was this: > [@](#): > > In addition, a unanimous vote of guilt also results in an acquital. Definitely didn’t see this one coming. Would you , by any chance, be able to expand upon the reasoning behind this? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/35 "2004-05-23T14:46:59Z")
That’s one of those “gotchas” that you find in Jewish law every now and again. It was surprising to me when I first heard it as well. One reason offered is because if the judges (at any point in their deliberations) all argue for conviction, then it is feared that there will be no chance that any of the judges will then turn around and listen to a possible argument for acquital. Rather than risk that, better to terminate the whole process. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/36 "2004-05-23T16:31:12Z")
Rebbe Schneerson’s interpretation was that if a person’s crime was so horrible that not one judge could find anything mitigating against the death penalty, then that person’s offense is so great, the death penalty would be too merciful a punishment. Since the purpose of punishment is atonement, he can’t be punished unless they can see good in him. He needs to repent before punishment can do any good, is the idea. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/37 "2004-05-23T22:59:45Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > Well, there are religions that have other rules such as "don’t murder, don’t steal, etc., that also have no connection to Judaism as well. Such laws are “common sense” laws that one could reasonably come up with on thier own (as opposed to, for example, the law regarding wearing wool-linen mixtures). It’s certainly within the realm of possibility that other religions/civilizations came up with the idea of “don unto others…” independently of the Jewish religion. > > Zev Steinhardt Well, I think it’s a little beyond “within the realm of possibility”, but no big deal. I do hope, however, that you try to see my further point. And I appreciate your many insights into Jewish religion and law. ---
**Author:** ![Lynwood\_Slim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Lynwood\_Slim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynwood_Slim)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/38 "2004-05-24T04:01:35Z")
> [@](#): > > since Moses killed all those idle worshipers I believe Moses killed “idol worshippers”, but there are probably not a few clergy today that wouldn’t mind doing some bodily damage to “idle worshippers.” Question for Zev Steinhardt (whose erudition and clarity are extremely impressive). I studied Hebrew many years ago, and I believe i learned two words (excuse me if I get them wrong): Sanegor and Kategor. I recall that they were words from Talmudic Judaism and meant something like, defense attorney and prosecutor. I have no reason to doubt your statement that in rabbinic jurisprudence judges hear the evidence and decide without an adversarial system, but it this is so, where do these words come from? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/39 "2004-05-24T04:17:31Z")
> [@Lynwood Slim](#): > > Question for Zev Steinhardt (whose erudition and clarity are extremely impressive). Thank you for the compliment. > [@](#): > > I studied Hebrew many years ago, and I believe i learned two words (excuse me if I get them wrong): Sanegor and Kategor. I recall that they were words from Talmudic Judaism and meant something like, defense attorney and prosecutor. I have no reason to doubt your statement that in rabbinic jurisprudence judges hear the evidence and decide without an adversarial system, but it this is so, where do these words come from? You are absolutely correct as to the meaning of the words you quoted. However, simply because the concept of a defense attorney or prosecutor is not present in Jewish jurisprudence, does not mean that the terms themselves would be unknown. The words do not appear (to the best of my knowledge) in pre-Talmudic literature. They may be foreign loan-words from Aramaic, Greek or any of the othe languages of the area. In addition, while Jewish jurisprudence does not have a prosecutor/defense attorney position, Talmudic descriptions of _heavenly_ jurisprudence do have a prosecuting angel/defending angel paradigm. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403/40 "2004-05-24T13:53:43Z")
Lynwood Slim: Just because those were not formal positions in Judaic jurisprudence as they are in Western law does not mean that the terms would have no meaning. Think “advocate” and “accuser” instead. The terms could be applied to supporting or hostile witnesses as easily as to counselors/attorneys, the term which we would most easily relate to today. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-in-jewish-culture-religion/246403.md?page=3)