# Morals or courtesies that you didn't realize weren't universal. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 2, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705 "2014-03-02T22:38:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/41 "2014-03-04T18:55:08Z")
In my experience - and again, it may be a local cultural thing - it’s usually the highest “status” person present who pays. If it’s a family meal, the parents pay; if it’s a work get-together, the boss pays. Only when all of the participants are of equal status - like friends, or siblings (but not if the age difference is too big) - the check gets split. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/42 "2014-03-04T18:59:35Z")
> [@Sattua](#): > > Holy cow me too. The way I was raised, the starting time of an event is the absolutely latest time it’s acceptable to show up. It bothers me that other people don’t see it that way. > > Also, who/what group considers going to a psychiatrist to be a sin? I haven’t heard that one. I know some Pentecostal Christians who’d call going to therapy sinful as it involves trusting Man over God. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/43 "2014-03-04T19:08:40Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > In my experience - and again, it may be a local cultural thing - it’s usually the highest “status” person present who pays. If it’s a family meal, the parents pay; if it’s a work get-together, the boss pays. Only when all of the participants are of equal status - like friends, or siblings (but not if the age difference is too big) - the check gets split. There’s an exception to this. If a vendor is taking a client or potential client out for a meal, the vendor pays. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/44 "2014-03-04T19:19:56Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Here in China, a stock exchange style free-for-all is the more natural state, so where queues exist, people are constantly pushing in and trying to shove round people. > But no-one ever cares that someone pushed in. They just think “Shit, why didn’t I do that?” or “I must have left too big a gap in front of me”. > Pushing in is not considered a bad thing to do. This was mine, too, but from a trip to Cairo. IME, Cairenes have no more ability to form a line and wait their turn than a teething infant has to stop crying. Getting a ticket for the metro means holding the money in one hand, sticking your hand into the crowd, and slowly inching your way closer to the window until your hand finally goes into the slot, when the cashier takes your money, puts tickets in your hand, and you can move away. It’s like sperm fertilizing an egg. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/45 "2014-03-04T19:34:45Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > We were road tripping around Eastern Europe, in Bosnia, and set up our tent along the side of a road in the verge of field. Suddenly a farmer was marching towards, looking very fierce, with a long pointy thing. I though he was coming to shoot us for trespassing! The long pointy thing was a cucumber, which he handed to us, still unsmilingly, clapped us on the back and went on his way. Now that’s nice: giving the travellers a cucumber. It was a good cucumber, too! You just have to get used to the lack of smiles. In Bosnian culture, a farmer offering a stranger a cucumber is supposed to be met with the sacrifice of your companion for the sake of the harvest. Your name is probably still accursed in the region for causing a grievous famine. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/46 "2014-03-04T19:55:22Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Things like “Why haven’t you done X yet?” or “When will you have X?” when it’s not actually due yet, and we just got part of the puzzle the day before. It’s like they’re trying to make us squirm, and it tends to make the Americans defensive and lash out; we generally try to come at asking those kinds of questions less bluntly when we don’t expect completion or perfection at that very moment. We save the blunt stuff for when they drop the ball in some fashion, but the Indians and Nigerians seem to just start out with it. In the UK, something akin to this at times makes matters uncomfortable between English / Welsh / Scottish from-way-back folk, and residents of the country who come from the Indian sub-continent. Particularly in business transactions of whatever kind, the Brits-from-way-back find that the “sub-continentals” can at times appear, in verbal interaction, blunt / abrupt / verging on rude and even apparently hostile. Brits consider that in such dealings, they themselves put a higher value on tactful circumlocution – and can feel offended at the way the other group expresses things. I think that with experience, folk come to realise that this is essentially a cultural difference, and no rudeness / hostility is intended. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/47 "2014-03-04T20:01:21Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > One that threw me for a loop is that if friends are going out to celebrate someone’s birthday, then the person whose birthday it is picks up ALL the checks (and during the climax of the celebrations gets cake smashed into his or her face). To me that sounds like a shitty birthday. Well, one is given to understand that among Tolkien’s hobbits, the above – minus the smashing-cake-into-the-face, so far as we know – is considered an excellent way to celebrate a birthday; by all, including the birthday person :). (Of course, a good many things that hobbits do, appear strange to normal-sized humans; and vice versa.) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/48 "2014-03-04T20:02:00Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I think it depends on whether there IS a host. Some friendly gatherings take place at one person’s house, but they aren’t hosting–they are just providing a place. Some gatherings at a restaurant may have been suggested by someone, but they aren’t hosting. That’s not at all the same as when you formally invite someone to something. That sort of works for the restaurant situation, but not the the home one. I’ve been to parties that have a host, and I’ve not seen anyone bring a gift unless it was food or drink intended to be used at the party. The sole exception are gifting parties, like for Christmas or birthdays. With a regular party, I’d actually find it rude if the host kept the food or drink for later. What seems to be different about the restaurant situation is the assumption of whether it is going to be hosted or not. Some people seem to assume that someone inviting you to eat with them is volunteering to pay for the meal. This is not my experience. Only if the person says that they will pay will I assume they will pay. Only if the invitation to a party held at a restaurant says that food will be provided will I assume that I will not have to pay. Expecting someone else to pay for you is the discourtesy in my circles. The “moocher” is the subject of gossip. And so I don’t break my own “rule,” here’s another one: I thought it was discourteous to park in front of someone else’s house unless there’s just no other place to park. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/49 "2014-03-04T20:04:30Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Let’s go with queuing. Where I’m from, people politely queue up and in the unlikely event someone pushed in, people would be pissed and it may well cause some drama. > (OK, I’m from England, which is famous for politely queuing, but it’s the same across much of Europe IME.) > > Here in China, a stock exchange style free-for-all is the more natural state, so where queues exist, people are constantly pushing in and trying to shove round people. > But no-one ever cares that someone pushed in. They just think “Shit, why didn’t I do that?” or “I must have left too big a gap in front of me”. > Pushing in is not considered a bad thing to do. God, this. What I think people might not realize is that in China people don’t just not make lines, they - if for some reason a line has been made - will blatantly, unabashedly cut. En masse. I remember waiting in line with a group of western friends in China waiting for something to open; the moment it did a throng of Chinese practically pushed us out of the way to get in ahead of us. You should see people trying to get on a bus over there. > [@AHunter3](#): > > I grew up _having heard of_ people feeling a need to say “God bless you” to you just because you sneezed, but until I emigrated to the NYC area in 1984 I’d never encountered it on such a scale. > > Up here complete and utter strangers on the subway who would otherwise politely ignore you in the normal fashion of urban commuters will actually say “God bless you” if you sneeze. I found it hilarious and kept wanting to ask people whether they believed my soul had fled my body along with my sneezy air, and I suggested a fake sneeze as a good way to get to know people if you come up here and don’t know anyone and you’re lonely. > > I presume the folks from around here would be surprised if they went to Albuquerque or Athens GA and sneezed on the bus. 😕 I’ve lived in a number of places across the US, including New York, and haven’t noticed a difference in the rate at which I was told “God bless you” (or “Gesundheit”). > [@Nava](#): > > In the US, “hi, how are you?” just means “hello.” This is very confusing for people coming from countries where “hi” means “hello” and “hi, how are you?” means “I really want to know how you and your family are doing. Is your mother’s hip better?” This is a big one, and leads to many accusations that Americans are shallow, superficial people. Like you say, people don’t realize that it just means “hello.” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/50 "2014-03-04T20:46:10Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > There’s an exception to this. If a vendor is taking a client or potential client out for a meal, the vendor pays. Good point. Applies to romantic dates, too, in many cases. Maybe there are two models: the “patronage model” and the “courtship model”. In the first, the “big man” pays to show his dominance; in the second, the “seducer” pays, in order to get what they want. If there is neither patron nor seducer, then the check gets split. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/51 "2014-03-04T21:09:09Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > Bolding mine. That’s the option that immediately springs to my mind–to some people it is utterly unthinkable to accept something from someone without immediately offering something in return. It would make them feel like mooches. You’re offering the chance to come into your home and socialize, and she can’t very well counter that with an immediate offer to come to her home, because that looks like she thinks your apartment isn’t fit for visiting. > > Then again, maybe she thinks your coffee is nasty and is too nice to say so. Just because you happen to think your machine and beans are the shit, that doesn’t mean someone else doesn’t think they’re just shit. I’m guessing the first too, though the second option is of course possible. But then it _would_ be rude, and it just doesn’t seem like her… But I was sorta wondering if that’s a thing in certain places: bringing coffee over? Maybe she’s just an oddball, maybe she doesn’t like my beans, maybe we’ll never know. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > In Bosnian culture, a farmer offering a stranger a cucumber is supposed to be met with the sacrifice of your companion for the sake of the harvest. > > Your name is probably still accursed in the region for causing a grievous famine. Oh no worries, I read all the guide books. Lonely Planet has a whole section on how to make the right cuts. Bled my friend dry right there. That earth is ready to grow more of those delicious cucumbers! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/52 "2014-03-04T23:13:05Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Smiling and saying good morning when passing on the street. Not sure which Asian culture it is that frowns on this. Possibly Korean, they do seem to adapt to Americans doing this rather quickly and will readily resond in kind once they figure out it is ok. A co-worker told me a similar story about when her parents came to visit from Poland. One morning she took them for a walk around her suburb and when they got home her parents asked how she knew all the peple who said good morning to them. One I encountered in India: getting money from an ATM. In Australia if there is a line for an ATM people will usually stand a few paces back from the person using the machine. Most of the ATM’s I used in India were in small glass enclosures set near the main entrance of a bank or large shop. Usually you’d take your money out and turn for find four or five locals crowding behind you to get to the ATM as well. Often you’d have to push your way out. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/53 "2014-03-04T23:34:18Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > In my experience - and again, it may be a local cultural thing - it’s usually the highest “status” person present who pays. If it’s a family meal, the parents pay; if it’s a work get-together, the boss pays. Only when all of the participants are of equal status - like friends, or siblings (but not if the age difference is too big) - the check gets split. More exceptions- my parents or my boss may pay ninety-nine times out of a hundred, whether they specifically invited me to a meal or we just ended up stopping for a meal in the course of a day of shopping/traveling/working. But I’m going to pay if I invite my mother out to celebrate her birthday or if I invite my boss out to celebrate his upcoming retirement. > [@](#): > > originally posted by **BigT** > Some people seem to assume that someone inviting you to eat with them is volunteering to pay for the meal. This is not my experience. Only if the person says that they will pay will I assume they will pay. Only if the invitation to a party held at a restaurant says that food will be provided will I assume that I will not have to pay. Depends on exactly how you’re invited. If I invite you to an (anniversary, birthday, retirement) party at restaurant, I’m paying in exactly the same way I would be paying if I invited you to a wedding at the same restaurant. If I tell you a bunch of us are getting together at a restaurant (even to celebrate one of those events) it’s an unhosted gathering and the check gets split. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/54 "2014-03-05T00:09:18Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > I’ve read this about Ireland as well. Something about the host making the offers to not look stingy, and the guest declining the offers to not look like a moocher. I have the opposite sensibility; declining a host’s hospitality strikes me as impolite. Nobody would fault anyone in Ireland for taking up on an offer of hospitality at first offer, it’s just that if they refuse it is (or really was, dunno what people are like of my generation in this regard) polite to ask them again a second, even third time of they want a drink or something to eat. It’s a generational thing I think because my mother will offer a house guest food or drink until they’re blue in the face saying no. I am comfortable with just offering and a refusal allows me to feel I have at least asked. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/55 "2014-03-05T00:37:07Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That sort of works for the restaurant situation, but not the the home one. I’ve been to parties that have a host, and I’ve not seen anyone bring a gift unless it was food or drink intended to be used at the party. The sole exception are gifting parties, like for Christmas or birthdays. With a regular party, I’d actually find it rude if the host kept the food or drink for later. I always slip my gift to the host/hostess in a little gift bag as soon as they greet me at the door. I don’t recall ever seeing anyone else’s hostess gift before, but I wouldn’t conclude from this that no one but me leaves presents. I also don’t give food or drink because people can be particular sometimes and I’m not a connoisseur of anything. Usually I give little hand-made decorative items or scented candles. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/56 "2014-03-05T00:55:58Z")
The lack of lines (queues) is a thing in Germany, too, or at least it was back in the 70s when I was stationed there with the US Air Force. Events held on the US base usually wound up with Americans trying to stand in line at food tents being pushed out of the way by the German guests who cut in front of everybody. I went to a music concert one time where the front doors were locked and we had to wait outside, there was no line, just a huge, unruly mob, which actually turned dangerous as the people on the edges of the crowd started pushing those on the inside back and forth. If you had lost your footing you would have been trampled. ---
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/57 "2014-03-05T01:40:56Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > But a hostess gift isn’t intended to be consumed right then. It’s a gift. It doesn’t need to be served or set out. That’s exactly what I was taught. There is no intention that they open it. They’ve already chosen the wine or whatever that complements the food they are serving. A hostess gift of food or drink is for them to eat or drink or throw away some other time. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/58 "2014-03-05T01:49:46Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > In the US, “hi, how are you?” just means “hello.” This is very confusing for people coming from countries where “hi” means “hello” and “hi, how are you?” means “I really want to know how you and your family are doing. Is your mother’s hip better?” I found a variation on this once when I began greeting people with just “Hi.” The response was often, “Fine, how are you?” which made me realize that my “Hi” was, in their mind, a condensed form of, “How are you?” (“Hayu?”) and they uttered the automatic response. Their mind wasn’t expecting just “Hi.” ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/59 "2014-03-05T01:52:57Z")
> [@Pai325](#): > > That’s exactly what I was taught. There is no intention that they open it. They’ve already chosen the wine or whatever that complements the food they are serving. A hostess gift of food or drink is for them to eat or drink or throw away some other time. Not necessarily. In some parties, what you bring is what you drink, or at least contribute to the bar so you aren’t consuming more than you brought. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705/60 "2014-03-05T04:21:10Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > What I think people might not realize is that in China people don’t just not make lines, they - if for some reason a line has been made - will blatantly, unabashedly cut. En masse. I remember waiting in line with a group of western friends in China waiting for something to open; the moment it did a throng of Chinese practically pushed us out of the way to get in ahead of us. You should see people trying to get on a bus over there. The really ridiculous situation is at my local supermarket where you need to go to weigh your fruit and veg. The time it takes to do each weighing goes up exponentially with the number of customers, because while the guy’s trying to weigh one person’s stuff, everyone else is just shoving their stuff on the scales. I think I would flip out from one day of having to do that guy’s job. And to be fair, he does look pretty pissed. But for the customers, there’s nothing odd about this situation and no-one is stressed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/morals-or-courtesies-that-you-didnt-realize-werent-universal/682705.md?page=4)