# More debunking of Noah's Ark!! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 25, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056 "2003-12-25T22:14:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/21 "2003-12-26T05:13:45Z")
IIRC, the Black Sea flood was not a sudden, cataclysmic event but a gradual encroachment of the ocean over some settled human communities. I think the flood stories could represent some collective and telescoped memories of migrations (with livestock in tow) into new areas. Some migrations may even have included boats. OTOH, flooding was pretty common in Mesopotamia. It could just represent a cultural fear of floods. ---
**Author:** ![Dijon\_Warlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9a28c/32.png) [@Dijon\_Warlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dijon_Warlock)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/22 "2003-12-26T07:11:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Why not just zap everything you don’t want out of existence by willing it? > > Better yet, don’t create it in the first place. \*\* Where’s the fun in that? ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/23 "2003-12-26T09:25:00Z")
If it had been proved that the Flood actually happened, it would have been a small, but forgotten piece of ancient history. Noah’s Ark still has people going through all sorts of processes to prove and disprove it, including scriptural research, scientific research, debates and just plain heavy duty analysis, oh and some standing on one’s head to achieve the correct angle to look at it. I see the event more as purely symbolic. It was designed exclusively to make you use all of your thought processes; including your conscience, imagination, thinking and communication skills. G-d is not impressed by gullible people. He gave us a riddle to try and solve. He’s such a kidder.😛 Okay, it was only IMHO, but it makes as much sense as any other reason. Dinosauers like cats. They taste like chicken. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/24 "2003-12-26T12:26:32Z")
From other boards, the only thing that I repeatedly hear as evidence is claims of other cultures having flood myths. That’s about it. I’ve occasionally seen a geologist debate with an avid arker, with the arker getting slaughtered. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/25 "2003-12-26T12:35:16Z")
Other cultures _do_ have their own flood myths. Or variations of the same one. Sumerians (Babylonians?), Chinese, and Greeks come to mind. Obviously, not proof of anything past _perhaps_ local floodings. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/26 "2003-12-26T13:26:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*Other cultures _do_ have their own flood myths. Or variations of the same one. Sumerians (Babylonians?), Chinese, and Greeks come to mind. Obviously, not proof of anything past _perhaps_ local floodings. \*\* Yes I do realize this, although not all of them do, I suppose my point was that, that wasn’t much evidence that there had been a world wide flood-although the people debating will think it is. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/27 "2003-12-26T20:20:23Z")
The Black Sea flood is undoubtedly a fascinating piece of prehistory. Without believing in the direct intervention of it all, it’s tempting to think that the person Noah may have existed. One can imagine him at the village council meetings: Noah: That saltwater spring in the southeastern mountains over yonder is putting out more water every year. It’s going to foul the lake. Fellow Town Councillors: Oh bah. Alarmist rhetoric. I suppose you’re going to say that most of the water on Earth is salt, and that there are enormous bodies of saltwater covering most of the world. N: Umm, yeah. I climbed up to the top of that mountain above the spring. And you know what I saw on the other side? F.T.C: You saw another valley? N: Umm, no. I saw a vast expanse of salt water, and it’s ABOVE us. One day the mountain range will break down, and we’ll be flooded. F.T.C. Well if you’re that worried about it why don’t you build a big boat and put your livestock aboard it. _snickers to the guy next to him, sotto voce_ I bet he does it, the fool. And then the next thing you know, wham! a huge flood, of which Noah is the only one in the village to survive. And thus a legend was born. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/28 "2003-12-26T20:22:00Z")
Ooops, that should be, without believing in the **divine** intervention of it all… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/29 "2003-12-26T20:25:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*IIRC, the Black Sea flood was not a sudden, cataclysmic event but a gradual encroachment of the ocean over some settled human communities. > > I think the flood stories could represent some collective and telescoped memories of migrations (with livestock in tow) into new areas. Some migrations may even have included boats. > > OTOH, flooding was pretty common in Mesopotamia. It could just represent a cultural fear of floods. \*\* The theory I’ve heard does postulate that it was sudden. Pretty much like a damn bursting between the Mediterian and the Black Sea. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/30 "2003-12-26T20:59:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*The theory I’ve heard does postulate that it was sudden. Pretty much like a damn bursting between the Mediterian and the Black Sea. \*\* Between the two _seas_, yes. Ryan and Pitman (the originators of the Black sea hypothesis) claim that the Mediterranean burt into the Black sea (really a freshwater lake at that time) with two hundred times the force of Niagra Falls and that this caused a rice in the Black Sea coastline of about six inches per day. Still a disaster for the farming communities around it and those communities were still submerged but it wasn’t like an instantaneous wall of water or anything. The Black sea hypothesis does have its [detractors](http://www.rpi.edu/web/News/press_releases/2002/noahsark.html) from other marine geologists. > [@](#): > > But, such a forceful flood could not have taken place, says Jun Abrajano, professor of earth and environmental sciences at Rensselaer. He is part of an international team of scientists who refute the so-called Noah’s Flood Hypothesis. > > Abrajano cites evidence of a much more gradual rising of the Black Sea that began to occur 10,000 years ago and continued for 2,000 years. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/31 "2003-12-27T03:46:28Z")
Black Sea Flood seems, to me, pretty much irrelevant. Of more interest is flooding of the areas between the Tigris and Euphrates, Sumeria and such areas. Widespread flooding would have been a natural catastrophe, and since that area was all of “known civilization”, the survivors would have thought the entire world was flooded. That would give rise to the legends, both Gilgamesh and later Noah. Those who take the bible to be word-for-word literally true are obliged to deal with these questions of world-wide flooding. Those who think the bible speaks in metaphor and poetry don’t have any problem reading “the entire world” to mean “the entire area.” ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/32 "2003-12-27T05:58:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > It could simply be that because early societies were located on the banks of rivers that floods naturally worked themselves into religions This seems to be likely the case. Ancient civilizations generally started next to rivers, and rivers have this tendency to flood, esp in spring or wet season. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/33 "2003-12-27T08:06:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Seriously, while I used to be a Global Flood believer, I now believe a regional deluge (perhaps the Black Sea disaster) wiping out all the people & domesticated animals of the area (perhaps even all the people who then existed) with Noah’s family & livestock being preserved meets the requirements of the Biblical story without any challenge to science or history. You mean all the people and animals who existed in that area, right? If it was ALL people except Noah’s family, I think the inbreeding probably would have killed humanity off pretty soon. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/34 "2003-12-27T15:46:04Z")
It couldn’t have been all people that existed. 7500 years wasn’t _that_ long ago. There were human populations all over the world at that time, including the Americas. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/35 "2003-12-27T18:02:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriarTed \* > Seriously, while I used to be a Global Flood believer, I now believe a regional deluge (perhaps the Black Sea disaster) wiping out all the people & domesticated animals of the area (perhaps even all the people who then existed) with Noah’s family & livestock being preserved meets the requirements of the Biblical story without any challenge to science or history. That is the story I _liked_ to tell myself and others too. _Myself_ just refuses to buy it anymore. I can cherry pick to an certain extent on whether different events in the Bible are real or symbolic, but when I have to do that so vigorously just on one story, it loses it’s self-delusional power. Isn’t this fairly specific as far as who would be destroyed and who would be left? > [@](#): > > Genesis 6 > 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. How does regional meet the requirements of the Bible story? This “end to all people” just doesn’t sound regional to me. I think as a “believer” it would definitely be to my advantage to say the story was just made up or symbolic or something?☹ ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/36 "2003-12-27T18:26:13Z")
Some old guy made up a tall tale to tell his kids. It was repeated for generations, modified as all orally-passed stories get, then solidified when writing was invented. Later, religions accepted the myth as truth. IMHO, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2003, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/37 "2003-12-28T07:40:19Z")
First of all, the reason YECs try to invent scientific explanations for the flood is so that they can get it taught in public schools. Adding god is a deal breaker in this respect. I suspect there are two reasons the flood story is in the Bible. First, it was well known, so it had to go in any history of the world. Second, it has a good moral for the priests who wrote the Torah - behave, or God will get really really mad at you. ]Yes it was inefficient. God could have thought everyone into the cornfield. Noah and his family probably got by through thinking _It’s a Good Life_ God. ---
**Author:** ![hroeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9adbd/32.png) [@hroeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hroeder)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056/38 "2003-12-29T19:29:49Z")
You pick up a book and read something that seems unbelievable. So you’ve got a couple of options. You can dismiss the book as utter rubbish. Or you can try to figure out what the author was trying to communicate. Now you have to sit back and say this book has been around for 2000 years, minimum, by the reckoning of other things I believe. So for 2000 years people have held some belief in this book. Dismissing it means dismissing all of those centuries of people as total morons. Indeed possible. So did this dude Hamlet exist? And how about Paul Bunyon? Or Napolean, he was one strange dude? And how did Hannibal get all of those elephants over the ocean? Who cares how many parts Gaul is divided into? The Library of Alexander? The Tower of Bable? Collosus of Rhodes? Pyramids. . . Well those last we know for certain they existed, exist. . . See the question for us, the subsequent generation, is to study the story of Noah and try to determine if it has meaning beyond the word on the page. Does water symbolize something? Why did the ark have three floors? What’s with sending out the different birds? I mean, if you can’t leave until the dove doesn’t come back, then why bother with the others? And if the dove doesn’t come back how do you know it’s safe? Maybe there’s a water breathing dragon out there killing doves? The curse of our culture is literalism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-debunking-of-noahs-ark/221056.md?page=1)