# More Democracts than Liberals: What? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-democracts-than-liberals-what/748665 "2016-03-11T17:58:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-democracts-than-liberals-what/748665/21 "2016-03-12T17:13:43Z")
And that could partly answer the OP’s question. Some people are Democrats because they support the progressivism, not the liberalism. And others are Democrats because they support the liberalism–but they think liberal means progressive, so they won’t self-identify as liberal. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-democracts-than-liberals-what/748665/22 "2016-03-12T17:15:50Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > The link works, not sure why you can’t access it. I disagree with your more nuanced poll being a better indicator of what I am talking about. A person identifies with an ideology and if common enough usually manifests into a coherent political party. That’s why “your plan is Socialist” is a smear, it’s not one group dismissing another group it is a majority dismissing a minority. Conservatives have this. A two party system means the other is defined by being in opposition, so the Democracts are held together by opposition not by ideology. > > This is all obvious, I guess my question is why is this so. Why is this accepted Democratic Party strategy? It’s not that it’s a more nuanced poll. It’s a poll that gets around the self-identification problem. It shows that there are in fact similar numbers of Democrats and people who agree with what we consider liberal positions. They just don’t call themselves liberals. Heck, it’s probably the best answer to your question: people just don’t like the word “liberal.” They refuse to identify as liberal even if anyone observing them could tell they are definitely left-wing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-democracts-than-liberals-what/748665/23 "2016-03-12T23:37:23Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Actually they do a bit. I recall a lot of hostility towards blue dog democrats among liberals like those in the Daily Kos back when blue dogs were a thing. Now many of those seats are republican. > > I don’t think it is as active or intense as it is on the right, but the opposition to DINO does exist on the left. Opposition is not hostility. Otherwise all primary fights would be hostile. And there has been no one with the clout of a Rush screaming at anyone not following the party line. And they were blue dog Democrats we’ve heard of because they were in conservative districts. Liberal Republicans often lost for the same reason. That isn’t being kicked out of the party. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-democracts-than-liberals-what/748665/24 "2016-03-13T03:59:42Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That’s where you get into definitional problems. What you are describing as the conservative position is, from an ideological standpoint, a liberal or libertarian position, as opposed to an authoritarian one. Conservatism, from an ideological standpoint, is about preserving the old. So, since Same Sex Marriage goes against tradition, it isn’t conservative, but progressive. > > In other words, the U.S. Right’s opposition to same sex marriage is based on its conservatism, not its libertarianism. Libertarianism doesn’t give a shit about tradition. > > You can sort concepts if you can agree on what words mean. But when you have people saying “conservatism” means “less federal government control” or treat “liberalism” as a synonym for “progressivism,” it gets far more confusing. > > I don’t agree with libertarianism, but their 2 axis system is rather good. Sure, there are more political axes, but focusing on two is still quite simple while being much better than trying to lump them together as only 1. Indeed. I mean Catholic view of government is one that is for a big social welfare state, but very traditional morality, and you see this at times within the “Christian Democratic” parties in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-democracts-than-liberals-what/748665/25 "2016-03-13T05:18:13Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I think it is generational. The generation who came of age under FDR probably had a better impression of liberalism, but for the last 40 years liberalism has been associated with the failures of Jimmy Carter, and then the Reagan recovery. > > However right now people are seeing the worst of capitalism. Income inequality, a broken health care system, lack of good jobs, low wages, expensive educations, plutocratic capture of the government, private sector inefficiencies compared to public, etc. Plus the Bush jr years left a bad taste in people’s mouths for conservatism. > > Nowadays, young people have a better view of socialism than capitalism. > > [Young People More Likely To Favor Socialism Than Capitalism: Pew | HuffPost Impact](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/29/young-people-socialism_n_1175218.html) Socialism as defined by the neoliberal economies of the Scandinavian nations tapered by extensive social welfare programs? Nah…young people want to demonize corporations and the rich, hear why they are victims, and get free stuff. Let’s not hinge our economic intellectual prowess on my generation. They need to grow up and realize Facebook posts aren’t the real world. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-democracts-than-liberals-what/748665/26 "2016-03-14T15:22:21Z")
The idea that Democrat = Liberal and Republican = Conservative is a very recent one. From within my lifetime, and I’m 33. There used to be liberal and conservative members of both parties. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-democracts-than-liberals-what/748665/27 "2016-03-14T15:32:03Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Opposition is not hostility. Otherwise all primary fights would be hostile. And there has been no one with the clout of a Rush screaming at anyone not following the party line. > And they were blue dog Democrats we’ve heard of because they were in conservative districts. Liberal Republicans often lost for the same reason. That isn’t being kicked out of the party. Can you provide a list of people who have been kicked out of the Republican party for being too liberal? I can’t think of one. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-democracts-than-liberals-what/748665/28 "2016-03-14T17:52:20Z")
I have views that would be classified as Liberal, and we have a polarized system anymore. Republicans actively oppose the things I believe to be right, so I vote against Republicans. This means that I vote for Democrats without really identifying as a Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-democracts-than-liberals-what/748665/29 "2016-03-14T18:00:44Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Can you provide a list of people who have been kicked out of the Republican party for being too liberal? I can’t think of one. Has anyone ever been kicked out of either party? The idea here is one of self-segregation. Liberals stopped feeling welcome in the Republican Party and conservatives stopped feeling welcome in the Democratic Party, and they voluntarily switched, either their positions or their party, in order to feel accepted. This happened both with voters and elected officials. Nobody kicked anybody out, this was an organic change that happened over the last century (but really solidified around R = C and D = L within the last 30-40 years or so). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-democracts-than-liberals-what/748665/30 "2016-03-14T18:13:02Z")
As a general rule, liberalism is winning. The country’s policies have gradually moved to what used to be the default leftist position on most\* major issues, either via the ballot box or the courts. It makes sense that fewer people will be on the leading edge - where we’re going - versus the middle or the old “default” positions. \*Obviously this is not a hard-and-fast rule; liberals have lost the gun debate, the tort reform debate, much of the union debate, and are losing the legislative battle over abortion and would be losing it by an even greater margin if not for a narrow SCOTUS majority. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-democracts-than-liberals-what/748665/31 "2016-03-20T22:47:39Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Historically, the Nation has been split in thirds over [party affiliation](http://www.gallup.com/poll/15370/party-affiliation.aspx) with Republicans, Democrats and Independents all hovering in the low 30’s. However [American ideology](http://www.gallup.com/poll/180452/liberals-record-trail-conservatives.aspx) is not an equal split, instead moderates and conservatives hover in the 40 range and with the liberals in the high teens and just cracking 20% for the first time a decade ago. > > What gives? > > Does this mean Democrats have done a poor job espousing the virtues of liberalism? Or that liberals aren’t determined enough to field their own party? Or something else? It means not all Democrats consider themselves to be liberal, and party leaders are fine with that because it means more votes. Are we done now? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-democracts-than-liberals-what/748665/32 "2016-03-20T22:48:47Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > The idea that Democrat = Liberal and Republican = Conservative is a very recent one. From within my lifetime, and I’m 33. There used to be liberal and conservative members of both parties. Yes. Nowadays, some people use the terms interchangably. It’s weird. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-democracts-than-liberals-what/748665/33 "2016-03-20T23:24:23Z")
Note that the poll quoted in the OP only offers the answers given since 1992. It says nothing about what terms Americans would have applied to themselves before 1992. It also says nothing about whether the terms “liberal,” “conservative,” and “moderate” mean the same thing now as they did half a century ago or a century ago or two centuries ago. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-democracts-than-liberals-what/748665.md?page=1)