# More election fallout: High-speed rail is coming to California **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2008, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571 "2008-11-07T01:28:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/141 "2008-11-10T19:26:11Z")
I am just curious as to how much folks have looked at the [California High Speed Rail Website](http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/). I now it has been posted before, but there is really a ton of information on the site. While there is still a lot to be worked out, they have actually done quite extensive studies on all the issues discussed here. ---
**Author:** ![DancinPete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DancinPete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DancinPete)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/142 "2008-11-10T20:38:16Z")
thanks for the link Gangster Oct. I was hoping that someone could point me to a source which shows what actual ‘costs per mile travelled’ they are using when they make claims that HSR is “Providing lower passenger costs than for travel by automobile or air for the same intercity markets.” I would assume that any travel cost comparisons would change drastically depending on what assumptions are being made for the price of oil. Are they basing their models on today’s costs ($65/barrel) or last summers’ ($147/barrel) or some unknown future cost 10 years from now. Would it be safe to assume that HSR operating costs would be less susceptible to higher oil prices? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/143 "2008-11-10T21:17:59Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Anyway, we could relieve pressure on LAX by getting people who are flying into LA to fly into Onterio, Burbank, or Long Beach instead of LAX. But that doesn’t happen. I love to fly into Burbank. It’s my preferred airport for Los Angeles, since it’s usually closest to where I need to be. However, in the long run it will remain only a satellite airport – it can’t do much more than it does now. It has among the worst NIMBY problems of any airport in the country. There is now a law which prohibits any signficant remodeling or expansion of the terminal at all, just on the chance that it might lead to more flights. Ed ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/144 "2008-11-15T00:00:44Z")
Say, I was wondering: Canada is supposed to be more eco-friendly and liberal and everything than the U.S. Is anybody pushing for HSR there? ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/145 "2008-11-15T04:55:54Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > I haven’t seen that claim. Surely, though, you can provide a cite for it? > > The train will go directly from San Francisco to Los Angeles and vice versa. NO they are talking about stops in San Jose, Stocton, Salinas and others. The stops have not been settled. Dig out your election book. With all those people ridding the train daily where do they think they are going to come from. It will take years to prove me right or wrong on this guess, I bet the system will not pay for its operation and we will be stuck paying more yearly when it becomes operational ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/146 "2008-11-15T05:01:37Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > What makes you say this? To take the Madrid-Barcelona AVE example already given, the trains are every 30 minutes at rush hour and hourly through the rest of the day. London-Paris, for another example with a similar journey time, has 16 trains each way. I think the operating expences will limit the number of trains. As I said above I may be wrong. And if the system is only from SF to LA it will be useless for the majority of Californians. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/147 "2008-11-15T05:06:49Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > They have a right to spend their money, and I have a right to criticize and question those expenditures. Wrong. We are going to be spending your and our money. Do you think this thing is going to be built without federal money? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/148 "2008-11-15T05:12:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Say, I was wondering: Canada is supposed to be more eco-friendly and liberal and everything than the U.S. Is anybody pushing for HSR there? We’ve had two high speed train programs in Canada - the UAC TurboTrain, and the LRC. Both were eventually shut down because they were not profitable, despite running in very congested corridors. Out of curiosity, why do you assume that high speed trains are eco-friendly? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/149 "2008-11-15T05:19:52Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Out of curiosity, why do you assume that high speed trains are eco-friendly? Because, unlike automobiles, they can be (not necessarily will be) run on electricity generated by non-hydrocarbon-combustion sources. (I’m nuclear-friendly, I consider it less an environmental threat than petroleum.) ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/150 "2008-11-15T05:36:31Z")
> [@Merkwurdigliebe](#): > > I looked for your calculations but didn’t really see much. So I decided to examine the case you were mentioning. On the high-speed rail example, I can’t offer any travel times with traffic, because it appears that google maps doesn’t do it for these areas. > > Woodland Hills to Hayward, CA > > Start in Woodland Hills and drive to the Sylmar station. This takes 25 minutes. Then take the train from there to the Redwood City / Palo Alto stop. This takes two hours and thirteen minutes. Finally drive from the Redwood City / Palo Alto stop to Hayward, CA. This takes 22 minutes. So it is literally three hours door to door using Google Maps and the estimated HSR timetables. Problem With you calculations. I do not believe there is going to be any Redwood City or Palo Alto cities stops. It would be either San Jose or SF. From Townsend street in SF or Deardon station in SJ it will take more than 25 minuttes. It would depend on the time of day. Stops will effect the speed a lot. From SJ to SF on the bullet is a litte over an hour. The regular train is over two hours. the difference is stops over 60 miles. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/151 "2008-11-15T05:45:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Because, unlike automobiles, they can be (not necessarily will be) run on electricity generated by non-hydrocarbon-combustion sources. (I’m nuclear-friendly, I consider it less an environmental threat than petroleum.) They are also very heavy, and have to run even if they aren’t full. On average, a Toyota Prius is more energy-efficient than an HSR ride is, even with just one person on board. The 35mph CAFE standard that’s coming wll make every car sold a more efficient way to transport people than HSR. And clearly, plug-in hybrids are going to be a big part of this. They run on electricity only for 80% of their lifespan, and can average as much as 500 mpg over that lifespan. At that miniscule consumption rate, biofuels become a reasonable source, making them completely green. And that’s just the technology we know will be here in 2 to 5 years. How efficient are cars going to be in 20 years? 30? With HSR, you are freezing transportation technology at today’s level. The HSR line has to operate for decades to pay back its investment. Halfway into its lifespan it may be the clumsiest, dirtiest mode of transportation we have. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/152 "2008-11-15T05:47:54Z")
By the way I do use the bus rather than drive to work. And I use to take the Cal Train rather than drive when I worked in the North Bay. And when I was work on North 1st I used the VTA light rail. These systems age expensive but they do work. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/153 "2008-11-15T10:06:00Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > Wrong. We are going to be spending your and our money. Do you think this thing is going to be built without federal money? I have no idea. But lets suppose that Congress appropriates a few billion dollars for high speed rail in California. In that case, HSR advocates could argue that Congress thought HSR was a good idea. And my response would be as follows: Just because Congress thinks something is a good idea doesn’t necessary mean it’s actually a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/154 "2008-11-15T10:36:07Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > With HSR, you are freezing transportation technology at today’s level. The HSR line has to operate for decades to pay back its investment. Halfway into its lifespan it may be the clumsiest, dirtiest mode of transportation we have. Does that description apply to Japanese or French systems? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/155 "2008-11-15T15:51:23Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Does that description apply to Japanese or French systems? I think this is an important question. One thing I found interesting comes from the wiki article on high speed rail: > [@](#): > > In both Japan and France the initial impetus for the introduction of high speed rail was the need for additional capacity to meet increasing demand for passenger rail travel. By the mid-1950s, the Tōkaidō Main Line in Japan was operating at full capacity, and construction of the first segment of the Tōkaidō Shinkansen between Tokyo and Osaka started in 1959. > > * * * > > In France the main line between Paris and Lyon was projected to run out of capacity by 1970, so it was decided to build a new line. In both cases the choice to build a completely separate passenger-only line allowed for the much straighter higher speed lines. So in both cases, you were apparently taking a service which was already somewhat in demand and improving it. In California, there is no direct train service from Los Angeles to San Francisco. So the success of high speed rail is a lot iffier than in France and Japan. And it seems to me that the energy efficiency issue is intimately connected to the popularity issue. If the train is not very popular, it won’t be full of passengers, so it won’t be very efficient. Unless you run only 1 train a day. Which will make it even less popular and in any event, you are still paying the same capital costs for the tracks, signals, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/156 "2008-11-15T22:44:50Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I have no idea. But lets suppose that Congress appropriates a few billion dollars for high speed rail in California. In that case, HSR advocates could argue that Congress thought HSR was a good idea. And my response would be as follows: Just because Congress thinks something is a good idea doesn’t necessary mean it’s actually a good idea. That has been proven time after time. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/157 "2008-11-15T22:47:49Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I think this is an important question. One thing I found interesting comes from the wiki article on high speed rail: > > So in both cases, you were apparently taking a service which was already somewhat in demand and improving it. > > In California, there is no direct train service from Los Angeles to San Francisco. So the success of high speed rail is a lot iffier than in France and Japan. > > And it seems to me that the energy efficiency issue is intimately connected to the popularity issue. If the train is not very popular, it won’t be full of passengers, so it won’t be very efficient. Unless you run only 1 train a day. Which will make it even less popular and in any event, you are still paying the same capital costs for the tracks, signals, etc. AmTrack does run ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571/158 "2008-11-15T23:03:46Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > AmTrack does run I don’t think so . . . I think that you have to switch to a bus for a good part of the trip. Do you have a cite? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-election-fallout-high-speed-rail-is-coming-to-california/471571.md?page=7)