I am sending over some asbestos clothing. I know what you’re thinking: asbestos can’t be legally worked with. You needn’t worry, as my asbestos mines are worked by imprisoned chattel chimpanzees on their way to the guillotine.
It occurs to me that the emotional impact of the Holocaust might be stronger than with slavery because of the time period. Many of us have met, or are related to, Holocaust survivors. Slavery is something we have to learn about in a book, and while it is, obviously horrendous to read about, and it’s left a horrible legacy on our country in innumerable ways, none of us has ever met a freed slave.
Both are really bad. But, in my opinion, genocide is worse than slavery.
- You can make efforts to right the effects of slavery.
- Slavery has some rational justification. It’s immoral but not insane.
- While I recently said in another thread that it was no longer possible to deny the evil of slavery by the era of American chattel slavery, there is an element of comparitive history. Slavery had some claim to having been sanctioned by tradition. The Holocaust did not. Anti-semitism may have existed but systematic genocide was something the Nazis came up with. They couldn’t claim “We’ve always killed millions of people. It’s part of our culture.”
I’m not claiming this, more asking for people’s thoughts on it, but I’ve heard that the genocide against those that the Nazis found undesirable had reason behind it. If they could create the idea of a Jewish conspiracy in the minds of Germans, it would give them something to rally against.
Interesting question because it had never crossed my mind that there was any evil to match the endless string of genocides throughout history, but on reflection organized, nationally endorsed slavery runs it a pretty close second.
I meant actual rationality, not rationality if you accept the insane premise as true.
I’m going to go with chattel slavery.
You guys paint such a rosy view of slavery, as if it is like having a slightly bad job.
The end result of slavery was death. The goal was to work a slave to death. To say “at least the slave got to live” is disingenuous. The death camp victims lived, too- until they died. Slaves did not live long lives. They worked until they died, often only a few years after beginning their lives as a slave- I believe Caribbean slaves could expect to live seven agonizing years before the work (or the owner outright) killed them.
Around 10% of slaves would die just on the way over- around two months chained, hungry and in the dark. This was considered an simple business loss, the way a grocer might throw out bruised fruit. A significant number of these deaths were suicides. Slaves headed to South America or islands would go to seasoning camps, where another 30% of them would die. If you were “lucky” enough to survive that, then it was off to the fields. Actually, so many people died that selling slaves was a really low-margin enterprise.
What happened in the fields varied. But quite often what happened is that you are worked like an animal until your body gives out and you die. As mentioned before, many slaves show skeletal deformities caused by being worked with no regard for their health. Women could look forward to being raped and impregnated over and over again until their body gave out, probably from giving birth to children they may never know beyond a vague idea that their children were also have a life of work, torture and rape.
Besides raw death and torture, the North American slave trade also wreaked destruction on a number of cultures. We will never know what Africa could have been if they did not have such a massive demographic drain at this crucial period. In America, slavery systematically separated and destroyed families. Furthermore, they systematically destroyed the slave’s culture and language. I believe it was common to keep slaves who speak the same language apart. The goal was to destroy people’s spirits. In my opinion, I think the effects of having your family, identity and culture systematically stripped away over a period of 500 years still affects our society today.
I don’t see that. But if you do then let me say it outright - slavery was evil.
But slavery as bad as genocide? No.
Slavery was at heart a business. And no owner made any money off of a slave who died. So while the traders and owners might have been willing to let slaves die, their preference was for them to live. Granted their efforts might be minimal but nobody was trying to kill their slaves. In a slave owner’s ideal world, every slave would live a long and healthy life because that meant they’d do more work.
The central idea of genocide, on the other hand, is to kill everybody.
Why do you single out American slavery? Several dopers, rightfully so, bring up the point of how long each of the atrocities lasted. So why not ask about slavery in general? What could your motivation possibly be in just citing US slavery? BTW, if anyone is interested in current slavery and nations where it is practiced today, yes, in April, 2010, it’s easy enough to find the facts. For starters:
For one thing, this thread was inspired by a thread specifically about American slavery and the Confederacy, but for another thing, American chattel slavery was more inhumane and brutal than most other forms. Why should it NOT be considered as a particular, individual institution?
He doesn’t ask about slavery in general for the same reason he doesn’t ask about genocide in general. He’s comparing two specific events.
In fact, I think the fact that it’s American slavery that’s being discussed makes it a tougher question to answer for Americans. I remember it was tough for me to swallow as a little tyke just how horribly we treated the slaves. “But America’s the good guys!” I nearly shat myself when I discovered the truth about Columbus.
Don’t know about you, I would rather be alive and enslaved than dead. I have been raped, I have been physicaly abused. I got over them. You don’t get over being dead.
Generally, you didn’t get over being a slave either. You died as one. You were raped; but how many times? If once or twice was bad, how bad do you think being raped dozens or hundreds of times would be?
I’m not sure what part you disagree with because ‘‘slave owners basically needed their slaves to live’’ can be interpreted at least two ways. That’s my own fault.
The first interpretation would be,
‘‘It was in the best interest of slaveowners for their slaves to survive.’’
The second interpretation would be,
‘‘Slaveowners could not survive without their slaves.’’
I meant the former. Which do you disagree with?
I find this comparison really difficult to swallow. Modern childhood abuse and adult rape are horrible, awful things, but we are literally talking about existing solely for the purpose of breeding and working, living a life from birth to death of enslavement, rape, and severe physical punishment while at the same time being completely dehumanized in every other respect including the right to speak and have social relationships. Just the fact that we’re sitting here posting on this subject, free to use written language to express our ideas, is indicative of the fact that none of us will ever come close to comprehending the magnitude of such a horrific institution. I really don’t think any of us has any reference point to decide whether slavery of that nature is something you can ‘‘get over.’’ In order to ‘‘get over’’ something, it has to end. Slavery did not end. Slavery was endless suffering.
I wholeheartedly believe that there are a number of human conditions to which death would be the obvious preference. I think slavery is arguably one of them.
Another way of looking at this question is to imagine yourself a parent of a little girl like Jaycee Dugard.
You’re given 2 choices. That she should be kidnapped and horribly murdered. Or that she kidnapped, stored away in a little shack, and forced to have sex with her captor and raise the resulting offspring for the rest of her life. She’s not allowed to go to school, leave the premises, or talk to anyone except her captors. If she shows any signs of disobeying, she’s whipped, maybe even torturted to set an example to her kids. She effectively is a slave and treated like property. You will never see her again.
Both are pretty damn bad, right? Now pretend instead one little girl, you’re talking about millions of people. In the case of the second scenario, not only are there millions of victims, but the victimization spans almost 3 centuries.
Tough one. Do you include the Middle Passage? I know it wasn’t relevant to the original debate. I’m inclining towards slavery just because it lasted so much longer, but on the other hand its primary purpose was not the extermination of Black people.
I’m Jewish. If I were black, I almost certainly would have chosen slavery and I can well understood people who thought them equal. But I just had to vote the way I did.
More objectively, the slave holders were making economic decisions. The Germans were motivated by blind hatred and pursued the final solution even when it interfered with their war efforts.
The latter. A lot of evil people do evil things because it’s in their best interests. That doesn’t mean they “need to do it.”
This. It’s more than an apples to oranges comparison. It’s like comparing apples to…I dunno…grass.