# More for Bible Translation Experts. . .
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [October 28, 1999, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387 "1999-10-28T18:26:00Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@keystream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keystream)
#### Post date: [October 28, 1999, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/1 "1999-10-28T18:26:00Z")
I read somewhere that the infamous verse “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live,” is actually a mistranslation and should read “Thou shalt not suffer a _poisoner_ to live.” Anyone know?
Also, I read somewhere else that the Holy Grail isn’t actually a cup or chalice…supposedly it’s a corruption of the Latin _graduale_, or ladder. Thus the Holy Grail is the ladder that Joseph of Aramathea used to climb up and take Christ off the cross. I’ve been chewing on this ever since I read it, so I’d appreciate any positive information. Thanks!
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### Author:  [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)
#### Post date: [October 28, 1999, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/2 "1999-10-28T18:39:00Z")
Don’t think so:
[http://inthebeginning.net/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm](http://inthebeginning.net/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm)
This link has a good Bible search engine, with the original Hebrew (Select "KJV/W Strong’s Definitions), and a list of various meanings that the Hebrew contains.
I took a quick look at that verse (from Exodus), and the word does not resemble the other words for poison.
But I’m also _not_ a Hebrew expert. ☹
Anyway, with this engine, you can search for words to get a list of places where they’re used–and then search for that verse in Hebrew.
It also contains the New Testament in Greek.
Have fun!
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### Author:  [@Pickman\_s\_Model](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pickman_s_Model)
#### Post date: [October 28, 1999, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/3 "1999-10-28T18:57:00Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I read somewhere that the infamous verse “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live,” is actually a mistranslation and should read “Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live.” Anyone know?
The verse in question is Exodus 22:18; the operative word is rendered “witch” in the King James Version. In Hebrew, the word is _kashaph_ (“kaw-shaf”), which is a root meaning “to whisper incantations” or “to use witchcraft”. It is closely related to _kashshaph,_ which means “magician” or “sorcerer”. A third related word, _kesheph,_ means “magic”, “sorcery”, or “witchcraft”.
> [@](#):
>
> Also, I read somewhere else that the Holy Grail isn’t actually a cup or chalice…supposedly it’s a corruption of the Latin graduale, or ladder. Thus the Holy Grail is the ladder that Joseph of Aramathea used to climb up and take Christ off the cross. I’ve been chewing on this ever since I read it, so I’d appreciate any positive information. Thanks!
“Grail” isn’t Latin; it’s Middle English “graal”, which is derived from Old French and Middle Latin “gradalis”, meaning “a flat dish” or “cup”. This is derived from Vulgar Latin back to Standard Latin “crater”, meaning a mixing bowl. The word came down to us from the writings of an 8th-century Cistercian monk named Helinadus, who wrote a book called _Gradale,_ which chronicles the story of a vision of the Holy Grail in the year 717. You are free to take as many grains of salt as you choose with these old legends concerning all these supposed relics; the Catholic Church does. (I do, too.)
There are presently at least four different specimens extant which claim to be _the_ Holy Grail. There are two which are the more famous; one is located in the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art, and was discovered in Syria in 1910. It is also known as the Chalice of Antioch, and it has a history way to long to recount here.
The other is is a dark-red colored cup of proven Roman date which is kept in the Catherdral of Valencia in Spain. This one also has a lengthy history. I don’t know anything about the other two examples; but I do know that the Church refuses to authenticate any of them, because it’s just simply impossible to prove that any of them were the actual cup used by Jesus during the Last Supper. Contrary to popular belief, the Church doesn’t go into these things lightly; and to avoid ridicule and embarassing retractions later on, all relics of this kind are very, very carefully analyzed and examined for proof and actuality before any statements are made concerning them.
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### Author:  [@pluto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pluto)
#### Post date: [October 28, 1999, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/4 "1999-10-28T19:02:00Z")
The Grail fell into a crack during an earthquake. I saw it. Indiana’s girlfriend fell in too, when she tried to get it. Luckily, Indy didn’t.
## You must mean our beacon, which, I’ve just remembered, is grail shaped.
If man was meant to fly faster than the speed of sound
he would have been born with 50,000 pounds of thrust.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [October 28, 1999, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/5 "1999-10-28T19:56:00Z")
A couple of other translation errors I remember:
Joseph’s “Coat of many colors” was a mistranslation of the Hebrew which meant “a long coat with sleeves”
“Thou Shalt not kill” is more accurately stated as “Thou shalt not do murder”, which in the context of the Bible is a totally different thing.
My favorite: “Peace on Earth and good will to all men” is actually supposed to be, “Peace on Earth to men of good will”. The second statement is almost the antithesis of the first.
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### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [October 28, 1999, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/6 "1999-10-28T20:11:00Z")
PM…shame on you. It’s in Glastonbury, well hidden (by Bedivere), where Joseph of Arimathea brought it when he founded the Church of England! 🙂
GD, anyone? 🙂
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### Author:  [@Pickman\_s\_Model](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pickman_s_Model)
#### Post date: [October 28, 1999, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/7 "1999-10-28T20:27:00Z")
WHAT??? ANOTHER piece of Catholic property that Henry VIII stole from us??? Wasn’t it bad enough that he shut down all our monasteries and robbed us of our money, not to mention swiping all OUR cathedrals that WE built, he had to steal the Holy Grail from us, TOO???
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
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### Author:  [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)
#### Post date: [October 28, 1999, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/8 "1999-10-28T23:09:00Z")
We all know about the mistranslation about Moses, where he comes down from the hill “with horns” instead of “shining,” right? Hence the odd Michelangelo, Claus Sluter et al sculptures. My personal favorite.
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [October 29, 1999, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/9 "1999-10-29T00:10:00Z")
Well everyone knows that “suffer the little children to come unto me” means that you’re supposed to administer corporeal punishment to your children so that they’ll grow up to be good Christians. Right?
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### Author:  [@Axel\_Wheeler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Axel_Wheeler)
#### Post date: [October 29, 1999, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/10 "1999-10-29T00:39:00Z")
At Syracuse University we have a statue of Moses, with horns intact.
You might ask, why do we have a religious statue at a university that accepts government funding? It’s outside the Law School, and he is supposed to represent the law rather than religion. I say that’s a lame excuse.
What about the rumor that the Aramaic word for manger was similar to lake, and that what it really says is that Jesus was born near a lake?
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[http://secularhumanism.com](http://secularhumanism.com)
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### Author:  [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)
#### Post date: [October 29, 1999, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/11 "1999-10-29T18:19:00Z")
This is getting ridiculous. A manger is an animal feeding box, which I suppose would be the logical thing to put a baby in if a you gave birth to him in a stable. As for the rest, are you guys just trolling, or trying to funny?
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“I had a feeling that in Hell there would be mushrooms.” -The Secret of Monkey Island
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### Author:  [@GasDr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GasDr)
#### Post date: [October 29, 1999, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/12 "1999-10-29T19:11:00Z")
Bible trivia: How many verses are there in the KJV and/or NIV Bibles?
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [October 29, 1999, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/13 "1999-10-29T20:28:00Z")
With or without the Apocrypha?
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### Author:  [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)
#### Post date: [October 29, 1999, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/14 "1999-10-29T21:48:00Z")
Diceman, what do you mean? Some of these are jokes, and obviously so (e.g Lumpy, Pluto), but others are serious translation questions. Are you asking whether there have ever been any translation/ copy problems with the Bible?
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### Author:  [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)
#### Post date: [October 29, 1999, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/15 "1999-10-29T22:35:00Z")
> [@](#):
>
> We all know about the mistranslation about Moses, where he comes down from the hill “with horns” instead of “shining,” right? Hence the odd Michelangelo, Claus Sluter et al sculptures.
I’ve heard (from my Art History 101 teacher) that this may not be a mistranslation; horns were considered symbols of great power to ancient people. There were Mesopotamian and Canaanite goddesses portrayed at that time with horns. I agree that the statues of Moses look pretty sill with horns, though. Are there any artists contemporary with the writing about Moses’ horns/rays of light who portrayed him with horns?
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“Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting.”
- Bertrand Russell
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### Author:  [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)
#### Post date: [October 29, 1999, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/16 "1999-10-29T22:44:00Z")
I actually asked a while ago on some hebraic studies listserve, and they reported that in the hebrew it was indeed “shining”, although the word for horn was spelled similarly (and in Hebrew you know that’s trouble). As for artists contemporary with the writing of Exodus? Uh, probably not… At least not in the area. I don’t think there are any contemporary hebrew artworks left to us (although Freud apparently thought that Moses and Akhenaten were the same person…).
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### Author:  [@heretic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heretic)
#### Post date: [October 29, 1999, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/17 "1999-10-29T23:04:00Z")
Ooh, Freud’s commentary on Bible mythology is fun, but can we throw in Uri Gellar’s interpretation of “Chariots of the Gods” to make it my best day _ever_?
“the Viennese delegation has not been invited”
ben
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### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [October 29, 1999, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/18 "1999-10-29T23:29:00Z")
I’ve always envisioned Moses with two Harpo Marx-style horns, one in each hand, to goose the recalcitrant Israelites into following where he was supposed to be leading 'em.
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### Author:  [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)
#### Post date: [October 30, 1999, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/19 "1999-10-30T01:22:00Z")
Pickman’s Model posted 10-28-1999 01:57 PM
> [@](#):
>
> There are presently at least four different specimens extant which claim to be the Holy Grail.
Do you mean “which are claimed to be the Holy Grail”?
Diceman posted 10-29-1999 01:19
> [@](#):
>
> This is getting ridiculous. A manger is an animal feeding box, which I suppose would be the logical thing to put a baby in if a you gave birth to him in a stable.
I don’t see how throwing a baby in with the animal chow is the “logical thing”.
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### Author:  [@Axel\_Wheeler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Axel_Wheeler)
#### Post date: [November 2, 1999, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-for-bible-translation-experts/4387/20 "1999-11-02T00:42:00Z")
Diceman,
I knew what a manger was (approximately). My question was whether there had been more support for the claim that a translation error occurred, and that the original text says that Jesus was born on the shore of a lake, not that he was born in a stable.
I apologize that I no longer remember who had made this claim (someone who knew Aramaic, I guess).
-Pete
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[http://secularhumanism.com](http://secularhumanism.com)
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