# More Fun with WORDS - Calling a Catholic a Heathen - What's wrong with this picture? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2002, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355 "2002-04-13T01:36:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/1 "2002-04-13T01:36:58Z")
In another Pit thread, allegations are being made that someone called a Catholic (Roman Rite) a heathen. Aside from being considered libel by **both** sides, what is wrong with this assertion? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/2 "2002-04-13T01:37:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by happyheathen \* > \*\*Aside from being considered libel by **both** sides, what is wrong with this assertion? \*\* The fact that there’s no link? 😉 Fenris ---
**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/3 "2002-04-13T02:12:57Z")
Um, because “heathen” means “an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible,” and Catholics believe in God? ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/4 "2002-04-13T02:21:57Z")
Ooh! Ooh! I get to be the first! Main Entry: heathen Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural heathens or heathen Date: before 12th century 1 : an unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible 2 : an uncivilized or irreligious person **racinchikki** may have gotten the meaning, but _I_ quoted the dictionary definition. I win. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/5 "2002-04-13T02:23:48Z")
think ‘origin’ ---
**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/6 "2002-04-13T02:50:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by happyheathen \* > \*\*think ‘origin’ \*\* Huh? The origin is “before 12th century.” Back then, the church WAS the Catholic Church. Heathens were Anyone Who Was Not Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/7 "2002-04-13T03:03:36Z")
yes, originally, ‘heathen’ was a Catholic term. for extra credit: Pagan or Heathen? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/8 "2002-04-13T03:14:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by racinchikki \* > \*\* > Huh? The origin is “before 12th century.” Back then, the church WAS the Catholic Church. Heathens were Anyone Who Was Not Catholic. \*\* Well, you fcould be a heretic. ---
**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/9 "2002-04-13T03:19:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\* > > Well, you fcould be a heretic. \*\* Was the difference that a heathen had not been converted, and a heretic had been Catholic but stopped? And **happyheathen** , I really don’t get your point. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/10 "2002-04-13T03:48:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by racinchikki \* > \*\* > Was the difference that a heathen had not been converted, and a heretic had been Catholic but stopped? > \*\* Well, more that a heretic was a Christian who wasn’t Catholic…if you were a monophysite, or an albigensian, or a hussite or something. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/11 "2002-04-13T03:52:31Z")
Leave out ‘Heretics’ - they came later (generally, generally) Most folk use ‘Pagan’ and ‘Heathen’ interchangeably - there is a difference (BIG difference). Hint: Pagans outnumber Heathens 100,000’s to 1 (numbers are WAG) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/12 "2002-04-13T04:01:27Z")
> [@](#): > > for extra credit: Pagan or Heathen? Etymologically, they are basically equivalent. Pagan is the Mediterranean term and heathen is the Northern European term. They both indicate someone from the “countryside” who is not “sophisticated” enough to understand and accept Christianity. (More recently, some neo-Pagans have begun differentiating between the two words, but I have not been able to get an explanation from anyone as to how they define them differently.) Heretic comes from the Greek word for _choice_ and simply indicates someone with the temerity to choose to believe something not approved by the church. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/13 "2002-04-13T04:09:55Z")
Mostly people use it anymore as the same thing as “pagan” “unChristian”, etc. While said person didn’t exactly call me a heathen, she and her buds more or less implied that I’m not a “true” Christian-partly because I’m Catholic, but mostly because I’m: 1. A Liberal 2. A Feminist 3. Hi Opal! 4. I swear 😉 ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/14 "2002-04-13T04:11:32Z")
As I use them: Pagan: one who practices a religion other than Christianity, Islam, or Judaism. Heathen: one who adheres to no organized religion. A Hindu is a ‘pagan’; I have no identifiable religion, ergo, ‘heathen’. glad to clear that one up for you, Tom 😉 ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/15 "2002-04-13T04:13:35Z")
don’t worry about what some damned Heretic calls you 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/16 "2002-04-13T04:15:00Z")
> [@](#): > > glad to clear that one up for you, Tom Is that simply your idiolect? Or is there some group of people that have imposed those meanings on the words? (Not that there is a problem in either event, but I am curious.) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/17 "2002-04-13T04:16:40Z")
Didn’t someone say here recently that all pagan means is a faith that is not Judaism, Christianity or Islam? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/18 "2002-04-13T04:49:05Z")
My understanding is that “pagan” comes from the latin “pagani”, meaning country person. Long after christianity became the official religion of most of Europe, people in the isolated countryside still kept their older religions…worship of Greco-Roman, Norse, or Celtic gods, or various mystery cults. Eh, what always gets to me are the people who assert that Christianity and monotheism introduced patriarchy to the previously egalitarian pagans. I guess they never heard of Jupiter, or Zeus, or Thor, or the Iliad, or the Greek Plays, or the Icelandic Sagas, or the all-male druids. Whatever, dudes. ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/19 "2002-04-13T05:32:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\* Is that simply your idiolect? Or is there some group of people that have imposed those meanings on the words? > > (Not that there is a problem in either event, but I am curious.) \*\* I have, at this late date, absolutely NO idea where my distinction of the terms arose. Part of my interest in starting this thread was to see if any others were aware of the distinction. **Guin:** see: [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11388a.htm](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11388a.htm) (circa 1918 Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Paganism) > [@](#): > > Paganism, in the broadest sense includes all religions other than the true one revealed by God, and, in a narrower sense, all except Christianity, Judaism, and Mohammedanism. The term is also used as the equivalent of Polytheism. I suspect it is the ‘all religions except’ verbiage which has resulted in the distinction of pagan/heathen - heathens are what’s left over (or behind :rolleyes: ) when those of ALL religions are removed from the population. For ‘heretic’, see: [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm) > [@](#): > > Passing over the great schism that rent East from West, and the many smaller heresies which sprang up in the Middle Ages without leaving a deep impression on the Church, we arrive at the modern sects which date from Luther and go by the collective name of **Protestantism**. yes, Vat II eliminated the Protestant=Heretic language, but the essential idea of a ‘heretic’ is somebody who REALLY SHOULD be Catholic, but refuses to be. Big difference between ‘Heathen’ and ‘Heretic’ (we’ll leave out the fact that ALL needed to be converted or killed) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355/20 "2002-04-13T15:11:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Leave out ‘Heretics’ - they came later (generally, generally) Baloney. Unless you’re ignoring the Ebionites, the Monophysites, the Monotheletists, the Sabellians, the Nestorians, the Montanists, the Arianists, the Patripassionists… Well, you get the idea! 😉 If this is in reference to the thread where you take me to task for making a joke based on Elton John’s sexuality and **Guinastasia** to task for swearing… My only question is the same one there? Where in the **fuck** do you get off deciding what her or my moral code ought to be and then judging us for breaking it? :mad: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-fun-with-words-calling-a-catholic-a-heathen-whats-wrong-with-this-picture/103355.md?page=2)