# More Hall-worthy; Mussina or Schilling? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 29, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926 "2010-06-29T14:16:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KennerTheGreat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a8b319/32.png) [@KennerTheGreat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KennerTheGreat)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/1 "2010-06-29T14:16:24Z")
If you could vote for one, and only one, of either Mike Mussina or Curt Schilling to beenshrined in Cooperstown, which one would you pick? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/2 "2010-06-29T14:23:10Z")
In terms of raw (regular-season) statistics, they’re close to a wash; Mussina leads in innings pitched, 3562 to 3261; Schilling is slightly ahead in ERA+, 128 to 123. Given that, my vote goes to Schilling based on their respective postseason records. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/3 "2010-06-29T14:25:18Z")
Schilling. No contest. 6× All-Star selection (1997, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2004) 3× World Series champion (2001, 2004, 2007) 2001 World Series MVP 2001 NL TSN Pitcher of the Year 2001 Roberto Clemente Award 2001 Babe Ruth Award 2001 Branch Rickey Award 2001 Hutch Award 1995 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award 1993 NLCS MVP Career postseason record of 11–2 As opposed to: Mike Mussina - 5× All-Star selection (1992, 1993, 1994, 1997, 1999) **7–8 record and 3.40 ERA** , with 142 strikeouts in 22 career postseason games **0 World Series Titles** Don’t get me wrong, I was always a fan of Moose, but the numbers easily favor Schilling. By a LOT. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/4 "2010-06-29T14:30:38Z")
A more interesting argument would be Curt Schilling vs. Tom Glavine. (Where I’d go with Glavine and his extra half a career, despite the postseason Schilling heroics). ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/5 "2010-06-29T15:00:56Z")
Schilling. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/6 "2010-06-29T15:04:24Z")
Schilling. Mussina doesn’t even have a ring, does he? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/7 "2010-06-29T15:52:46Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Don’t get me wrong, I was always a fan of Moose, but the numbers easily favor Schilling. By a LOT. I wouldn’t say it’s a LOT. A lot would be Glavine over Schilling, or Steve Carlton over Catfish Hunter. Schilling and Mussina are quite close. Schilling won three World Series titles but that’s not Curt Schilling’s accomplishment alone, after all. I put Schilling a hair ahead for his postseason heroics and the fact he was a tiny bit better (in a slightly shorter career) but it’s a close call. You’re also leaving out things that don’t fit with your argument, mentioning that Schilling won the Branch Rickey Award, which has nothing to do with baseball-playing ability, but not mentioning that Mussina won seven Gold Gloves. I think both are legitimate candidates. ---
**Author:** ![Yorikke](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yorikke/32/4335_2.png) [@Yorikke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yorikke)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/8 "2010-06-29T16:25:58Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > A more interesting argument would be Curt Schilling vs. Tom Glavine. (Where I’d go with Glavine and his extra half a career, despite the postseason Schilling heroics). Really? That wouldn’t be interesting at all. Glavine in a complete rout, and I despise the Braves, and love Schilling and the Phils. Joe ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/9 "2010-06-29T16:26:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I wouldn’t say it’s a LOT. A lot would be Glavine over Schilling, or Steve Carlton over Catfish Hunter. > > Schilling and Mussina are quite close. Schilling won three World Series titles but that’s not Curt Schilling’s accomplishment alone, after all. I put Schilling a hair ahead for his postseason heroics and the fact he was a tiny bit better (in a slightly shorter career) but it’s a close call. You’re also leaving out things that don’t fit with your argument, mentioning that Schilling won the Branch Rickey Award, which has nothing to do with baseball-playing ability, but not mentioning that Mussina won seven Gold Gloves. Okay, if we’re voting for the Gold Gloves HOF he’s got my vote. But the fact is, he was a great REGULAR season pitcher, fair-to-middling POST season pitcher. If you look at the numbers that matter, Schilling was money when it counted. Schilling: 3 rings World Series MVP Moose: 0 rings End of story. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/10 "2010-06-29T16:37:43Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > A more interesting argument would be Curt Schilling vs. Tom Glavine. (Where I’d go with Glavine and his extra half a career, despite the postseason Schilling heroics). > [@wheresgeorge04](#): > > Really? That wouldn’t be interesting at all. Glavine in a complete rout, and I despise the Braves, and love Schilling and the Phils. > > Joe Yeah, but at least there you’d have an argument about how much you’d weight regular season versus post-season; Cy Young awards versus world series rings, and all that. In the case of Mussina versus Schilling, they’re really very even on regular season performance, so there’s really nothing to put on Mussina’s side (well, the 50 wins if you think wins are a meaningful statistic which they aren’t) to balance against Schilling’s postseason performance. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/11 "2010-06-29T17:12:31Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Schilling: 3 rings > World Series MVP > > Moose: 0 rings > > End of story. This is just silly. As **RickJay** said, there is good reason to take account of Schilling’s postseason performance in making this evaluation, and particularly his MVP award, but to reduce it to the number of rings the way you do is stupid. Pitchers with 4 World Series rings: Orlando Hernandez Jeff Nelson Mike Stanton Pitchers with 0 World series rings: Juan Marichal Phil Niekro Gaylord Perry ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/12 "2010-06-29T17:14:56Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Okay, if we’re voting for the Gold Gloves HOF he’s got my vote. But the fact is, he was a great REGULAR season pitcher, fair-to-middling POST season pitcher. If you look at the numbers that matter, Schilling was money when it counted. > > Schilling: 3 rings > World Series MVP > > Moose: 0 rings > > End of story. You don’t really believe that. David Eckstein’s a WS MVP; so are Cole Hamels, Livan Hernandez and Josh Beckett. Andy Pettitte has 5 rings, El Duque has 4, and each of those two pitched well to earn those rings. End of story, everybody’s better than Mussina? Of course not. Mussina was great in the postseason anyway. What makes Schilling clearly better for me is the level of dominance he reached around the turn of the century. Mussina’s had a great career but over any given stretch of time there have been a handful of pitchers as good or better. Schilling’s 2001-2004 were really special - an ERA right around 3, WHIP flirting with 1, and a preposterous strikeout/walk. If Randy Johnson hadn’t been winning 4 consecutive Cy Youngs at the time, there is a real argument to be made that Schilling could have grabbed a bunch himself (he finished 2nd 3 times as it stands). And that’s one level of performance higher than Mussina ever achieved. Interestingly, though, according to WAR Mussina’s been a more valuable player over his regular season career, and adjusting for the difference in innings he still stacks up pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![kingbighair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/13edae/32.png) [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/13 "2010-06-29T18:51:16Z")
Schilling spent the majority of his career in the weaker NL throwing against pitchers, whereas Mussina spent his entire career in the AL East. I think that has to be taken into consideration when comparing numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Incensed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Incensed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incensed)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/14 "2010-06-29T19:15:24Z")
Agree with **mhendo** and **Jimmy Chitwood** on the postseason aspect. Myself, I’ve got Schilling ahead strictly on regular season numbers. Simply put, he was clearly a level or two better than Mussina on an inning for inning basis, and Moose’s slight longevity and consistency advantages don’t nearly offset that, IMO. And have a gander at Schilling’s 2002 sometime-it’s the highest K/BB ratio ever recorded in a full season-and he finished second in the Cy Young voting _on his own team._ Of couse, Cliff Lee is doing his best to double Schilling’s record up this year. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/15 "2010-06-29T20:29:58Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > You don’t really believe that. David Eckstein’s a WS MVP; so are Cole Hamels, Livan Hernandez and Josh Beckett. Andy Pettitte has 5 rings, El Duque has 4, and each of those two pitched well to earn those rings. End of story, everybody’s better than Mussina? Of course not. Mussina was great in the postseason anyway.son career, and adjusting for the difference in innings he still stacks up pretty well. Fair enough. But you still voted for Schilling, right? I’m not basing my vote purely on WS rings, despite what I’ve presented. Fact is, I’ve been following the O’s my whole life, and I love Mussina as a player, even when he ran to the Yankees to chase a ring like so many other players (which I honestly can’t blame him for. I think he deserved to get a title under his belt; he was a great player and he was never going to get one in Baltimore), but there’s still no question whatsoever whose career stands out between these two and everyone knows it. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/16 "2010-06-29T22:09:47Z")
Does it matter? The baseball HOF is like the town bicycle. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/17 "2010-06-30T01:04:01Z")
> [@Incensed](#): > > And have a gander at Schilling’s 2002 sometime-it’s the highest K/BB ratio ever recorded in a full season-and he finished second in the Cy Young voting _on his own team._ I dunno how you’re defining “Full season,” but the record for a pitcher who qualified for the ERA title is held by Bret Saberhagen, in 1994 (and Saberhagen pitched enough innings to qualify even had it been a 162-game season.) ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/18 "2010-06-30T08:25:57Z")
My initial gut reaction is Schilling due to his highers peak and the whole “Bloody Sock” mystique (the Hall is nothing if not a shrine to the great moments). But looking at them side-by-side, Mussina was clearly the better pitcher overall. And I had no idea his final season was so good. He could have probably held on and kept pitching for a few more years while Schilling was clearly out of gas after 2007. ---
**Author:** ![KennerTheGreat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a8b319/32.png) [@KennerTheGreat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KennerTheGreat)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/19 "2010-06-30T11:53:50Z")
Well, the consensus seems to be that Schilling is the better pitcher, so I will hijack my own thread and ask which cap do you think should be on Schilling’s plaque? He spent most of his career in Philly, but his WS MVP was with Arizona (along with 23- and 22-win seasons) and two of his three career WS wins were with Boston. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926/20 "2010-06-30T12:29:42Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > My initial gut reaction is Schilling due to his highers peak and the whole “Bloody Sock” mystique (the Hall is nothing if not a shrine to the great moments). But looking at them side-by-side, Mussina was clearly the better pitcher overall. This is the crux of the matter. Both of them deserve the honor as both were great pitchers. Not Rocket or Maddux, sure, but still great. But Schilling has the edge in the ‘fame’ category because of his heroics and the bloody sock thing. And those things speak volumes to the voters. There’s a mystique to capturing the imagination of the fans on at least one occasion during your career. Schilling had that a couple of times. Mussina never did. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-hall-worthy-mussina-or-schilling/544926.md?page=2)