# More Harry Potter Book 7 speculation (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 5, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-harry-potter-book-7-speculation-spoilers/355487 "2006-05-05T01:47:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-harry-potter-book-7-speculation-spoilers/355487/181 "2006-06-17T20:31:31Z")
Dang it, my copy’s gone missing. Arthur Weasley Molly Weasley Bill Weasley Fred Weasley George Weasley Ron Weasley Hermione Granger Harry Potter Sirius Black Remus Lupin Mundungus Fletcher (?) Nymphadora Tonks (?) Alastor Moody (?) Is that about right? ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-harry-potter-book-7-speculation-spoilers/355487/182 "2006-06-17T21:12:16Z")
I was trying to remember the 13 myself. I believe that you have them all right except for Moody. Ginny counts among the 13, I think. Sirius stands up during the argument over whether Harry should be given the information, before Ginny is sent to bed. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-harry-potter-book-7-speculation-spoilers/355487/183 "2006-06-18T04:24:20Z")
kaylasdad99 and Rysto, you have it right when you combine your two answers. In kaylasdad99’s list, replace Moody with Ginny. At the end of the meal, Sirius says “I’m surprised Harry that you haven’t asked about Voldemort yet”, they start arguing, Mrs. Weasley says to Sirius “you couldn’t really be a good guardian to him while you were in Azkaban, now could you?” Then Lupin says “Molly, you’re not the only one that cares about Harry” and to Sirius “sit down, Sirius”. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-harry-potter-book-7-speculation-spoilers/355487/184 "2006-06-18T05:54:26Z")
[QUOTE=Arnold Winkelried] kaylasdad99 and Rysto, you have it right when you combine your two answers. In kaylasdad99’s list, replace Moody with Ginny. At the end of the meal, Sirius says “I’m surprised Harry that you haven’t asked about Voldemort yet”, they start arguing, Mrs. Weasley says to Sirius “you couldn’t really be a good guardian to him while you were in Azkaban, now could you?” Then Lupin says “Molly, you’re not the only one that cares about Harry” and to Sirius “sit down, Sirius”. [/QUOTE] But is he still standing when Ginny is ordered from the table? 'Cos if he isn’t, then the “thirteen at table” rule should reset, and Ginny is looking pretty under the weather. That’s why I was trying to place Moody in the room. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-harry-potter-book-7-speculation-spoilers/355487/185 "2006-06-18T06:09:48Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] But is he still standing when Ginny is ordered from the table? 'Cos if he isn’t, then the “thirteen at table” rule should reset, and Ginny is looking pretty under the weather. That’s why I was trying to place Moody in the room. [/QUOTE] Ah, but is it “rise” or “leave?” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-harry-potter-book-7-speculation-spoilers/355487/186 "2006-06-18T06:25:56Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] Ah, but is it “rise” or “leave?” [/QUOTE] It shouldn’t make any difference. If Sirius sits down before Ginny rises, there are thirteen sitting at table again. When Ginny is ordered out of the room, she rises to leave the table. If Sirius doesn’t sit down until after Ginny leaves, then it’s okay and Ginny is safe. She’s also safe if there is another person sitting there, such as Mad-Eye Moody. She’s _also_ also safe if Rowling never intended or intends to validate the “thirteen at table” superstition in the first place, and the whole issue is just a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-harry-potter-book-7-speculation-spoilers/355487/187 "2006-06-19T15:10:34Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] Ah, but is it “rise” or “leave?” [/QUOTE] Trelawney’s exact words, from Prisoner of Azkaban, Chapter Eleven: “Never forget that when thirteen dine together, the first **to rise** will be the first to die!” (bolding mine) > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > But is he still standing when Ginny is ordered from the table? 'Cos if he isn’t, then the “thirteen at table” rule should reset, and Ginny is looking pretty under the weather. There is no “resetting” of the “thirteen at table” rule. Were you sleeping during Professor Binns’ class when he covered the history of it? Once your butt leaves the chair _and you were intending to stand up_, you are doomed! Doomed I tell you! It is a binding magical contract!!! > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > if there is another person sitting there, such as Mad-Eye Moody. The dinner scene starts with this: “As they [Ron, Hermione, Harry] passed the row of house-elf heads on the wall they saw Lupin, Mrs. Weasley, and Tonks at the front door, magically sealing its many locks and bolts behind those who had just left.” So some members of the order have left already (including most of the advance guard that went to fetch Harry at Privet Drive.) From then on until the part where Sirius rises from the table, the only names mentioned are the thirteen in your list above. It would be speculating beyond the evidence presented in the book to put another person at the table. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-harry-potter-book-7-speculation-spoilers/355487/188 "2006-06-19T16:53:44Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] It shouldn’t make any difference. If Sirius sits down before Ginny rises, there are thirteen sitting at table again. When Ginny is ordered out of the room, she rises to leave the table. If Sirius doesn’t sit down until after Ginny leaves, then it’s okay and Ginny is safe. [/QUOTE] But when Sirius sits back down, they aren’t there to eat, but talk. So only the first one should count. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-harry-potter-book-7-speculation-spoilers/355487/189 "2006-06-19T19:57:07Z")
Dang. I should have asked for a replacement copy of _Order of the Phoenix_ for Father’s Day, instead of _Louis Prima’s Greatest Hits_. ---
**Author:** ![Millit\_the\_Frail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Millit\_the\_Frail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millit_the_Frail)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2006, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-harry-potter-book-7-speculation-spoilers/355487/190 "2006-06-19T22:50:46Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] Oh, and btw, **eleanorigby** , I believe the word you’re looking for is _Occlumency_. [/QUOTE] Wait a minute–isn’t the reading of minds called Legilimency? If Snape is reading Harry’s mind (I have no doubt there were times!), he is using Legilimency. Occlumency is the blocking off of one’s own mind. BTW, I’m loving this thread. Dopers seem to have the coolest HP theories of all. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-harry-potter-book-7-speculation-spoilers/355487/191 "2006-06-20T00:42:25Z")
[QUOTE=Millit the Frail] Wait a minute–isn’t the reading of minds called Legilimency? If Snape is reading Harry’s mind (I have no doubt there were times!), he is using Legilimency. Occlumency is the blocking off of one’s own mind. [/QUOTE] :smack: So it is. Full marks to you. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2006, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-harry-potter-book-7-speculation-spoilers/355487/192 "2006-06-22T14:24:12Z")
Regardless, neither ability is called occulism–maybe I wanted Snape to be an eye doctor? 😉 Having finished the series, I am of the opinion that Snape is the ultimate Slytherin. Oh, he is against Voldy and all, but can’t quite keep his personal motives apart from his mission… My WAGs: Ginny will help HP somehow while he is in Godric’s Hollow. They will not do this whole pretense of not caring thing–it’s awkward and Rowling has too much to do to keep it up. Hermione and Ron will get together at the wedding. Something BAD will happen at the wedding. It will end up that there are 3 Horcruxes left (fiction writers and legend makers like things in 3s). The climax will be HP and Voldy (now mortal) in a final showdown–HP is victorious, thanks to house elves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-harry-potter-book-7-speculation-spoilers/355487.md?page=9)