# More homophobia from Bush: gay people are "sinners."
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [July 30, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960 "2003-07-30T18:46:18Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/41 "2003-07-30T20:35:57Z")
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> _arsenokoitai_
Tee-hee
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### Author:  [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/42 "2003-07-30T20:37:33Z")
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> At this time, America, unlike Canada, is not ready for gay marriage.
Bullshit. Those who run America aren’t ready to set down their bigotry and be inclusive any more than they were to blacks in the 1950s and before.
America has a poor history of dealing with minorities and this is just another example.
It seems to take forever for any approach to parity, and even when there is legal parity, social takes even longer.
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### Author:  [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/43 "2003-07-30T20:38:32Z")
HOMEBREW –
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> Jodi et. al., you’re wrong.
Them’s fightin’ words! 😉
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> Bush was hand waving by saying that “we’re all sinners”. If you follow the whole freaking answer we get to the real point that, he’s got lawyers looking into how to codify bigotry against one particular brand of “sinners”.
First, I don’t know what “Bush was hand-waving” means. Second, I am only taking issue with DIOGENES saying that Bush said or implied that gays are sinners. What Bush _said_ was he would not judge them, because we are _all_ sinners. That’s _all_ he said that had _anything_ to do with “sin” or “sinners,” and that was in direct response to a question about the morality of homosexuality – an issue he was smart enough not to bring up himself, and was adroit enough to evade when a reporter brought it up. How do you go from “I won’t judge gays, becasue we are all sinners” to “Bush says/implies gays are sinners!”? C’mon. He said/implied that only to the extent that “all people” obviously includes “gay people.”
The “codified bigotry” is another can of worms, of course.
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### Author:  [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/44 "2003-07-30T20:40:47Z")
BEAGLEDAVE, you can call me Betty, and I’ll call you Et Al. 🙂
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/45 "2003-07-30T20:43:37Z")
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> \*Originally posted by Lord Ashtar \*
> It appears that Paul is grouping homosexuals together with a group of sinners who will not get into Heaven.
Let’s not forget the obvious one from Leviticus, or as I like to call it, The Big Book of Sins:
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> Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination
(Leviticus 18:22)
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### Author:  [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/46 "2003-07-30T20:44:54Z")
It’s hand-waving because, even though he wasn’t asked about gay marriage, he went straight (pun intended) into saying that he was looking into ways to make sure it never happens. He professed one thing (being non-judgemental) while doing another (enforcing bigotry). He’s waving his hands to distract you from what he’s actually doing. His hand-waving denial of judging is the rhetorical equivalent of “I’m not a bigot, but …”
He denies judging but then immediately judges.
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### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/47 "2003-07-30T20:49:32Z")
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> \*Originally posted by grienspace \*
> \*\*Look, I understand the legitimate beefs that gays have in America and the dissapointment with Bush’s remarks, but consider where he comes from. A good leader must have sensitivities towards all factions of American society and choose words that can effectively reconcile.
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> At this time, America, unlike Canada, is not ready for gay marriage. At this time, the large contingent of those who believe that homosexuality is a sin are best addressed by the words of Jesus himself regarding a proper attitude towards “sinners” The encouragement of tolerance of differing attitudes and lifestyles as Bush promoted will be of far more benefit at this stage than any outright support for gay marriage, a sure pill for political suicide.
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> Tolerance first. It will breed understanding. History has shown that free and democratic societies inevitably follow a path towards a better society for all. I’ve seen so much favourable change in my country, and we are not completely there yet, but I’m confident in a better society for tomorrow. And I’m confident and hopeful that America will follow suit.
> . \*\*
Okay, first, by anyone’s reading of the Bible, gay people are sinners. As are heterosexuals, bisexuals, the celibate, Pope John Paul II, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Patriarch of Constantinople, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, George W. Bush, John Ashcroft, Sts. Peter, Paul, Francis of Assisi, Francis Xavier, John Calvin, Martin Luther, and every other human being you can name.
And as such, under any version of Christianity worthy of the name (and I’m not playing “no true Scotsman” but merely sticking the Westboro Baptist Church where it deserves to be stuck), they’re saved by the grace of God through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and entitled to mercy and compassion from other Christians, not judgment and condemnation.
As for GWB accommodating his views to take into account his supporters, bleeah! He might consider following the example of President and General Dwight David Eisenhower and doing what is right, regardless of what it might cost him.
Every week the Raleigh _News and Observer_ devotes its Sunday Opinion section to a controversial issue that seems to have strong support on both sides. This past Sunday’s was gay marriage. I trust their instinct not to go far out on a limb far more than I trust polls – they read their public pretty darn well.
GWB is in the pocket of the Unholy Alliance of the biggest of multinational corporations with the Religious Right. Actions like this may play well in Dallas and San Antone, but they’re not popular in California or New York – and they’re beginning not to be popular in Des Moines and Lincoln. Bush (or Karl Rove) has badly misjudged America.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/48 "2003-07-30T21:09:35Z")
I cannot believe how moronic this is. Can’t you read?
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> President Bush on Wednesday rejected same sex marriage but **declined to pass moral judgment on homosexuality** …
Basic Christian doctrine is that we are all sinners. Gay, straight, bisexual, asexual - it doesn’t matter, all of us are sinners.
How you get from that to thinking Bush made any special accusation against gays is beyond me.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/49 "2003-07-30T21:19:49Z")
Why should he pass moral judgement on homosexuality when he can pass legal judgement against it?
Insert favored profanity here.
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### Author:  [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/50 "2003-07-30T21:32:33Z")
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> Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination.
“Well, I **don’t.** ” - Maggie Cassella
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### Author:  [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/51 "2003-07-30T21:54:07Z")
So, can some of you folks that are nitpicking here in support of the president **cough** \*\* beagledave \*\ ***cough** clear something up for me? Leaving aside the hairsplitting of Bush in this specific speech singling out homosexuals as sinners, you do agree that he at least implied that he had lawyers looking in to how to exclude gay folks from the institution of marriage.
I want a simple answer to the following question: Do you think that this is ok?
Also, on another front, as a non-Christian (who never the less has made a point to read the Bible), it is my understanding that Christ was supposed to be the fulfillment of the old covenants from the Old Testament. Isn’t that why Christians no longer keep kosher and burn oxen in offering? If that is the case, does it not follow that all of the anti-homosexual religious arguments must come from the New Testament? In other words, can we not kick Leviticus to the curb at this point?
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### Author:  [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/52 "2003-07-30T21:54:09Z")
Perhaps he meant ‘cynics’? Yes, that’s probably what he meant.
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### Author:  [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/53 "2003-07-30T21:57:45Z")
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> \*Originally posted by Polycarp \*
> \*\*Okay, first, by anyone’s reading of the Bible, gay people are sinners. As are heterosexuals, bisexuals, the celibate, Pope John Paul II, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Patriarch of Constantinople, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, George W. Bush, John Ashcroft, Sts. Peter, Paul, Francis of Assisi, Francis Xavier, John Calvin, Martin Luther, and every other human being you can name.
GWB made the same point in the news conference.
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> And as such, under any version of Christianity worthy of the name (and I’m not playing “no true Scotsman” but merely sticking the Westboro Baptist Church where it deserves to be stuck), they’re saved by the grace of God through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and entitled to mercy and compassion from other Christians, not judgment and condemnation.
GWB made the same pont in the news conference
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> As for GWB accommodating his views to take into account his supporters, bleeah! He might consider following the example of President and General Dwight David Eisenhower and doing what is right, regardless of what it might cost him.
Doing what is right and being effective in doing what is right is two different things. Politics is like that. Democracy requires it’s leaders to take into account all the different factions of opinions, and quite often subjugate personal opinion about what is right for the greater good. In this particular case, all the fundamentalists in America have to give pause to the idea that the “sin” of homosexuality is no more deserving of special attention than any other sin found in each and every one of us. GWB’s sensitivity towards tolerance and understanding for gays and muslims shows him to be a truly great leader.
I would like to add that GWB does have deep views regarding the “sanctity of marriage”. After all, it is quite clear that he comes from a fundamentalist background. Just like myself. But I see a journey of reaching out for understanding of others, just like myself, and that no-one can be as effective as him to affect change in attitude within the fundamentalist community towards homosexuals. It’s actually amusing for me to read the chastisement towards homophobic fundamentalists, assuming Pat Robertson et al wringing their hands, but afraid to criticise “their boy” too loudly.
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> GWB is in the pocket of the Unholy Alliance of the biggest of multinational corporations with the Religious Right.
If that was the case, then I would agree with you.
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### Author:  [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/54 "2003-07-30T22:00:07Z")
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> \*Originally posted by BrightNShiny \*
> **Bah. Why don’t people like this just admit they want to establish a theocracy in this country?**
Call me a cynic, but I don’t think Bush is any more of a true Christian than, say, Clinton was. Fact of the matter is that a large part of the US population _is_ conservative-Christian, and they tend to be loyal voters to boot. So, if you want to win the presidency, there’s no way around it: you HAVE to appeal to conservative Christians, or you’re not going to make it.
I don’t think Bush is aiming for a true theocracy any more than his predecessors, be they Democrats or Republicans.
And I fully agree with **Jodi** here: in context, Bush’s remarks here weren’t all that outrageous. I sincerely disagree with his stance that straight marriages ought to be somehow the only legal ones if at all possible (while the rest of the civilized world is simultaneously _legalizing_ gay marriages, even), but the remarks about the morality of homosexuality were not offensive at all. Unless you’re looking for offense, of course, in which case, you’ll always find it.
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### Author:  [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/55 "2003-07-30T22:10:31Z")
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> \*Originally posted by friedo \*
> \*\*Let’s not forget the obvious one from Leviticus, or as I like to call it, The Big Book of Sins:
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> > Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination
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> (Leviticus 18:22) \*\*
What if thou art a womankind?
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### Author:  [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/56 "2003-07-30T22:12:13Z")
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> \*Originally posted by anewthought \*
> \*\*This statement is 100% correct from the bible itself. Please explain how a factual statement from the bible can be translated to ‘homophobe’. Stating a fact about something is not the same thing as being scared of homosexuals. \*\*
**anewthought** clearly doesn’t have any.
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### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/57 "2003-07-30T22:13:59Z")
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> \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \*
> \*\*One problem is that at this time, there is a substantial bloc that are attempting to pass a constitutional amendment to forbid gay marriage in the US, thereby ensuring that it will not be ready for it for many, many years to come. This would be a rather permanent method of pinning the country Back Before and would be extremely hard to get rid of. \*\*
Matt,
I’m not sure you realize how extrodinarily difficult it is to pass an ammendment to the Constituion. If this was the only tactic the Religious Wrong was using, I’d be ecstatic, because it’ll never get passed.
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/58 "2003-07-30T22:29:07Z")
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> \*Originally posted by Homebrew \*
> **Lord Ashtar, are you suggesting that Paul wrote in English?**
Absolutely not. And please don’t attempt to misrepresent what I say.
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> \*\*How are you so sure that “homosexual offenders” means “all homosexuals”? Could it not be that “homosexual offenders” is a subset of homosexuals. Especially since the idea of a homosexual orientation is a relatively modern idea, it’s probably inaccurate to translate “malakoi” or “arsenokoitai” as “homosexual”. \*\*
Actually, it’s quite accurate. The word “arsenokaoitai” translates directly to English as “male sodomite.”
Source: Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/59 "2003-07-30T22:31:35Z")
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> \*Originally posted by Binarydrone \*
> **I want a simple answer to the following question: Do you think that this is ok?**
No, I don’t.
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### Author:  [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)
#### Post date: [July 30, 2003, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-homophobia-from-bush-gay-people-are-sinners/191960/60 "2003-07-30T22:33:25Z")
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> I’m not sure you realize how extrodinarily difficult it is to pass an ammendment to the Constituion. If this was the only tactic the Religious Wrong was using, I’d be ecstatic, because it’ll never get passed.
I understand, though, that the number of states that need to ratify such a thing is very close to the number of states that already have a state DOMA.
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