# More language peeves **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 11, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814 "2005-04-11T17:24:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MizQuirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/94ad74/32.png) [@MizQuirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MizQuirk)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/61 "2005-04-12T13:26:41Z")
– for free – No, no, no. It comes to you free, or for nothing, but you don’t get it for free. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/62 "2005-04-12T15:14:24Z")
I knew someone who always said “the human cry”, when he meant “hue and cry”. It was annoying but amusing. The variations on “prima donna” just kill me. When an employee wrote “pre madonna” in a memo to me, I just had to ask him if he was referring to Diana Ross. I got a blank look. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/63 "2005-04-12T15:18:02Z")
And actually, it’s hew and cry. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/64 "2005-04-12T15:19:08Z")
Wow, teach me to be smart. I would have laid down good money on it being hew and cry. Nothing to see here. ---
**Author:** ![Large\_Marge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/50afbb/32.png) [@Large\_Marge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Large_Marge)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/65 "2005-04-12T15:39:21Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Marge, I’m deliberately subverting the accepted order of things. It is one of my great and abiding beliefs (adumbrated ad nauseam here by not only me but other Brits) that US liberals are about as pink as Genghis Khan or Maggie Thatcher. > > They loves 'em their guns especially. Then I don’t think you know too many U.S. liberals. I don’t know a single liberal who’d keep a gun, for any reason. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/66 "2005-04-12T15:50:52Z")
> [@Large Marge](#): > > Then I don’t think you know too many U.S. liberals. I don’t know a single liberal who’d keep a gun, for any reason. [I know of one](http://www.fadetoblack.com/debates2004/kerry-hunting.gif) Daniel ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/67 "2005-04-12T16:44:18Z")
**Excalibre** > [@](#): > > Our spellings are simply the conventions we use to capture speech on paper. Would you say the word “mischievous” came first on paper or as a spoken word? If spoken first why wouldn’t it be spelled as you say it was supposedly originally pronounced(mis-chee-vee-us)? After all we have “previous” and “devious.” You am not getting it are you? ---
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/68 "2005-04-12T16:46:30Z")
I wonder how many times I have annoyed folks in my life by referring to a beginner’s textbook on a subject as a “primer”, spoken like paint primer. It wasn’t until a year ago that I found that the word rhymes with “simmer”. Slight tangent… I normally don’t mind funky pronunciation of foreign place names if they are the accepted proper English pronunciation of the name. We don’t say _Lisboa_, we say Lisbon – they don’t say London, they say _Londres_. Fine. However, it drives me nuts when I hear a news reporter pronounce _São Paulo_ as “Sow Pollo”, even though that may be the accepted English pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/69 "2005-04-12T17:07:39Z")
> [@davmilasav](#): > > Not sure if this fits but my bugaboo is “forté” being used to mean “strong point.” > > The word is “fort.” As in Fort Knox, Fort Pitt or Fort Duquesne. Why do you think they call them “forts?” > > “Forté” means “loud,” you knob. The "e’’ on the end is silent. It’s a French word. Deal with it. > > Here’s what [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) has to say about it: \*\* Usage Note\*\*: The word forte, coming from French fort, should properly be pronounced with one syllable, like the English word fort. The absolute best part of this post is the accent marks you chose to use. In French, that accent over the “e” signifies that the “e” is to be pronounced as “ay.” When “forte” is written “forte” (no accent), yes, a French speaker would pronounce it “fort.” But when the accent is there (aigu? I forget - never could keep them accent names straight), as in “forté,” absolutely French speakers would pronounce it “fortay” because the accent tell them too. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/70 "2005-04-12T17:16:06Z")
On the forte issue, from m-w (who I trust a lot more than [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com), for whatever reason.) > [@](#): > > usage In forte we have a word derived from French that in its “strong point” sense has no entirely satisfactory pronunciation. Usage writers have denigrated 'for-"tA\ and 'for-tE\ because they reflect the influence of the Italian-derived 2forte. Their recommended pronunciation 'fort, however, does not exactly reflect French either: the French would write the word le fort and would rhyme it with English for. So you can take your choice, knowing that someone somewhere will dislike whichever variant you choose. All are standard, however. In British English 'fo-"tA\ and 'fot\ predominate; 'for-"tA\ and \for-'tA\ are probably the most frequent pronunciations in American English. To sum up: It is indeed a French word. The French pronounce it closer to “for” than “fort” so we can’t even claim that pronouncing it “fort” is adhering to its French origins. All are standard. No matter which you say (except maybe “for”) anyone familiar with the word will very likely know what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/71 "2005-04-12T17:28:39Z")
But isn’t **forte** one of those words, like **niche** \*, that if you pronounce it right people look at you funny and don’t understand you? \*A professor at my university insisted this was pronounced _neesh_ and not _nitch_. I just try not to use the word. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/72 "2005-04-12T17:49:24Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > **Excalibre** > > Would you say the word “mischievous” came first on paper or as a spoken word? > If spoken first why wouldn’t it be spelled as you say it was supposedly originally pronounced(mis-chee-vee-us)? After all we have “previous” and “devious.” > You am not getting it are you? Oh, I _get_ it. I have participated in more discussions here than I care to admit about linguistic prescriptivism. I also read books on linguistics and take classes in it - I’ve heard the arguments before and I’ll hear them again. It doesn’t matter what the original form of “mischievous” was, because language forms change. Constantly. And if you decide to base your speech upon the “purer” forms of generations past, all that will happen is that you won’t be understood by anyone living. There’s no value in setting up old forms of language as some sort of idol; there just ain’t nuthin’ special about whatever form the word “mischievous” took hundreds of years ago. I imagine you wouldn’t like this standard to be applied evenly, either - otherwise, I might use such old forms as “ax” for “ask”, or “ain’t”, or double negatives, or end present participles with “-in” rather than “-ing”. And I might confuse “fewer” and “less”. “Ax” and “ask” are attested from around the same period (making them equal according to your criterion), but in all the other cases I listed, the “correct” form is the newer one, and the older, and thus “purer”, form is now the deprecated one. So either you have to find another reason besides which form is older to justify your claims that “mischievous” is correct and “mischievious” isn’t, or else (to avoid the inevitable accusations of hypocrisy) start using the other old forms that your fourth-grade teacher would have smacked you for. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/73 "2005-04-12T18:07:10Z")
My _third_ grade teacher enlightened me as to the pronunciation of mischievous, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/74 "2005-04-12T18:22:08Z")
**Excalibre** > [@](#): > > And if you decide to base your speech upon the “purer” forms of generations past, all that will happen is that you won’t be understood by anyone living. I suppose this might be true if we had two or three hundred year lifespans. ---
**Author:** ![Licentious\_Ectomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5e9695/32.png) [@Licentious\_Ectomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Licentious_Ectomorph)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/75 "2005-04-12T18:25:10Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Hmm. I’ve had these discussions before on here. And in fact, I inevitably win. Says who? You? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/76 "2005-04-12T18:31:13Z")
> [@Nordic](#): > > Says who? You? Well, the fact that I was right is in my favor. 🙂 But you gave up; frankly, you didn’t manage to hold your own. And you gave up when it became obvious that you didn’t have anything else to say. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/77 "2005-04-12T18:38:05Z")
I’m giving up on you, but that doesn’t mean you “win”. ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/78 "2005-04-12T18:39:18Z")
> [@Large Marge](#): > > Then I don’t think you know too many U.S. liberals. I don’t know a single liberal who’d keep a gun, for any reason. Well, come to West By God and I’ll introduce you to plenty. Back to the topic… I was dragooned into attending a home decor party and the hostess kept telling us that whatever Godawful decoration she was selling would become “The vocal point of the room.” ---
**Author:** ![Licentious\_Ectomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5e9695/32.png) [@Licentious\_Ectomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Licentious_Ectomorph)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/79 "2005-04-12T18:41:12Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Our spellings are simply the conventions we use to capture speech on paper. This is _precisely_ the argument I used in a thread as to why “noo-kyoo-lar” is an incorrect pronunciation of _nuclear_. The word was spelled the way it was to correspond to the way it is pronounced. According to the sounds that are assigned to individual letters, which most of us agree on, the pronunciation “noo-klee-ar” leads logically to the sequence of letters n-u-c-l-e-a-r. If “noo-kyoo-lar” were a legitimate pronunciation, it would have been spelled in such a way as to produce that sound. > [@](#): > > “Am not”. Isn’t this common knowledge? Where do you get this little pearl? “Ain’t” is used in a virtually limitless variety of constructions in which not even the most ignorant, illiterate rube would say it means “am not.” He ain’t, they ain’t, we ain’t, it ain’t, these ain’t, those ain’t… ---
**Author:** ![Licentious\_Ectomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5e9695/32.png) [@Licentious\_Ectomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Licentious_Ectomorph)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814/80 "2005-04-12T18:54:09Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Well, the fact that I was right is in my favor. 🙂 But you gave up; frankly, you didn’t manage to hold your own. Again, according to _you._ There were quite a few others in that thread (the majority, if I’m not mistaken) who don’t see it that way. And not having anything else to say is not the same as giving up. I had my position, I presented it as clearly as I could, you didn’t agree, we all got on with our lives. Why keep saying the same things over and over? I see far too much of that on these boards and it gets boring. The length of many of these threads (on topics many and varied, not just on grammar) could be a fraction of what they end up being. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-language-peeves/298814.md?page=5)