# More Lies and Bullshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 9, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315 "2004-07-09T17:04:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/21 "2004-07-09T18:47:14Z")
I supose you could just have him mail in his underwear. ---
**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/22 "2004-07-09T18:50:36Z")
A spoiled rich, politically connected kid got special treatment as a Reservist? No way, that stuff only happens in the movies. People I think that Shrub is a fucknutted moron, but this is a complete non issue, we are talking about a 3 month span of time from over THIRTY YEARS AGO. Shut up, grow up, catch up, we (as a country) have MUCH bigger fish to fry. Unclviny ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/23 "2004-07-09T18:58:55Z")
> [@unclviny](#): > > People I think that Shrub is a fucknutted moron, but this is a complete non issue, we are talking about a 3 month span of time from over THIRTY YEARS AGO. > > Shut up, grow up, catch up, we (as a country) have MUCH bigger fish to fry. > > Unclviny Sorry, it’s NOT a non-issue. As any Republican with a hard-on for Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy will tell you, it’s a matter of integrity, honesty and values. He’s lying about his record, his party is lying about his record, and the logical conclusion is that he’s lying about a host of other things. It’s part of a body of evidence, as lawyers are fond of pointing out, that helps define the level of sleaze this guy is capable of, and which helps define how voters will react in November. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/24 "2004-07-09T19:14:42Z")
I’m sorry, but I think it _is_ a non-issue. You have no evidence that he’s lying about his record, just unsupported allegations. He received an honorable discharge, and for reasonable people that should be the end of the discussion. Really, there’s a lot of legitimate stuff to question about this guy. This is silly. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/25 "2004-07-09T19:23:40Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > I’ve got no problems with it, as long as the Provider is still John Elway. _Starts slow clap_ ---
**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/26 "2004-07-09T19:26:34Z")
I think that this is a cheap, silly, diversionary tactic designed to keep the sheeple (us) away from the real issues and I don’t care who did it or why. I say again as a Country we have MUCH bigger fish to fry!. Unclviny ---
**Author:** ![Albert\_Rose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Albert\_Rose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Albert_Rose)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/27 "2004-07-09T19:31:51Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I don’t even know what to think about this shit anymore. I think people that support this man should be shunned from society. Or married, as I did to (with) my wife two months ago. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/28 "2004-07-09T20:19:44Z")
Actually, I would like to find out how the secret mind-controlled robots in the Pentagon knew in 1997 that Bush was going to be the nominee in 2000, and that his national service was going to be an issue. I suspect their time machine malfunctioned due to grit in the mechanism, picked up during its trip back to the grassy knoll. The EMP pulse it generated then wiped out the files. All perfectly straightforward and above-board. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/29 "2004-07-09T20:36:31Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Sorry, it’s NOT a non-issue. As any Republican with a hard-on for Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy will tell you, it’s a matter of integrity, honesty and values. He’s lying about his record, his party is lying about his record, and the logical conclusion is that he’s lying about a host of other things. It’s part of a body of evidence, as lawyers are fond of pointing out, that helps define the level of sleaze this guy is capable of, and which helps define how voters will react in November. So, just to clarify… Wait, what made Clinton such a great guy? I havent seen any Grand Juries assemble yet… ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/30 "2004-07-09T20:39:17Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Where do you get this “everyone at the Pentagon” and “everyone who works for the government” stuff? All it would take is a couple of the classic Republican [little elves](http://dir.salon.com/news/feature/2000/03/04/willey/index.html?sid=659902) like the ones who secretly worked to impeach Clinton. Or do you feel like denying that nasty little bit of history? I’m denying squat and acknowledging bubkus. I don’t know who “Republican elves” are, I know even less about what makes them “classic”, and I don’t see how this has any bearing on what we’re discussing. You’re comparing a handful of private attorneys with career Pentagon people in several different areas and consider this a valid analogy? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/31 "2004-07-09T20:58:06Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > No, I gotta better plan: one half of society could EAT the other half! Hey, whatever I can do to better serve the Republican party… ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/32 "2004-07-09T21:08:31Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Hey, whatever I can do to better serve the Republican party… It’s all about presentation. Garnish the facts, and you can’t go wrong. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/33 "2004-07-09T21:15:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, I would like to find out how the secret mind-controlled robots in the Pentagon knew in 1997 that Bush was going to be the nominee in 2000, and that his national service was going to be an issue. > > I suspect their time machine malfunctioned due to grit in the mechanism, picked up during its trip back to the grassy knoll. The EMP pulse it generated then wiped out the files. > > All perfectly straightforward and above-board. > > Regards, > Shodan Uh, I’m pretty sure the OP is suggesting that the Pentagon covered it up _this_ year, and _lied_ about it having happened in 1997. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/34 "2004-07-09T21:36:03Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > So, just to clarify… > Wait, what made Clinton such a great guy? > > I havent seen any Grand Juries assemble yet… Ummmm…I don’t understand the question. I didn’t say he was a great guy. My point was that he had integrity issues that NObody would let die. And I agree that the country has huge issues, not the least of which is the dishonest smirking frat boy in the White House. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/35 "2004-07-09T22:05:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, I would like to find out how the secret mind-controlled robots in the Pentagon knew in 1997 that Bush was going to be the nominee in 2000, and that his national service was going to be an issue. Oh come now. Both GW and Brother Jeb were on the track to be the Republican nominee. The only reason it went to GW was that Jeb managed to lose his first run for Florida governor. Add these missing records to such other records-gone-missing issues as the “I saw the records in the trash” thing and GW’s new Texas Driver’s license (which as I understand it has the effect of masking any criminal record he might have had prior to the issuance of the new license, but I’m not 100% on that) and it doesn’t take too much of a leap to get to the notion that GW and his supporters took steps to purge the paper trail. Am I saying that it happened? No. I’m saying that it looks really bad and that there’s a potential history of this sort of thing which, if true, warrants investigation. And not to play the partisan card since I’m not a Democrat, there is no denying that if it were Clinton in a similar situation many of the same people going “no big deal” about GW’s military records would (and did) scream for an independent counsel (Whitewater billing records anyone? Hillary’s stock investment?). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/36 "2004-07-10T04:10:34Z")
> [@Mojo](#): > > I’m denying squat and acknowledging bubkus. I don’t know who “Republican elves” are, I know even less about what makes them “classic”, and I don’t see how this has any bearing on what we’re discussing. You’re comparing a handful of private attorneys with career Pentagon people in several different areas and consider this a valid analogy? Nah, low-level bureaucrats NEVER try to ingratiate themselves with powerful political factions by doing them favors even without a request for their help (Linda Tripp Linda Tripp Linda Tripp). ---
**Author:** ![thermalribbon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@thermalribbon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thermalribbon)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/37 "2004-07-10T04:21:53Z")
Oh come on now. This has to be the biggest non-story yet. Like there aren’t lost records from every institution. This is just the NYT trying to smear Bush by implying that the lost records somehow cover up some inconsistency or lie that Bush has told regarding his Air National Guard Service. And the people who buy into it follow like sheep. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/38 "2004-07-10T04:50:59Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Um, although there has indisputably been some hanky-panky with Bush’s records, the accidental destruction of these records actually sounds quite plausible to me, given the time and circumstances. Thirty-year-old microfilm isn’t exactly the most stable medium, which is why there was an effort by archives to salvage what could be salvaged. You would _expect_ losses. Sounds more like something happened to the microfilm over the last few weeks, not the last thirty years. > [@](#): > > [Testy, Testy, Testy > By Dan Froomkin > Special to washingtonpost.com > Friday, June 25, 2004; 11:43 AM](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5127-2004Jun25.html) > > Associated Press Assistant General Counsel Dave Tomlin told me yesterday that AP reporters began trying to get the documents back in February, but hit roadblock after roadblock. > > Tomlin said the AP has been informed that **the microfilm in question does indeed exist**. Tomlin said that because paper records can vanish and be tampered with, the microfilm “would erase any questions.” ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/39 "2004-07-10T05:56:30Z")
A simple rule. “Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.” A massive government agency with millions of records on paper and microfilm was trying to clean up and backup, and in the process they destroyed some. I’ve seen that happen in the private sector on a number of occasions. Perfectly plausible. A governmnet worker screwed a rather insignifigant (at the time) pooch. I’m surprised that more weren’t ruined. > [@](#): > > What an amazing coincidence! :rolleyes: Coincidences DO happen. Does anyone really care about this? If the pentagon provided proof on microfilm that GW had a perfect record, would we buy it? Hell, I wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315/40 "2004-07-10T06:07:26Z")
Perhaps if Bush and his pals hadn’t made such allegations about John Kerry’s military career, this wouldn’t BE that big of an issue? They trashed him, made false accusations about his service in Vietnam and afterwards, and then get all defensive about their own pasts? No way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lies-and-bullshit/254315.md?page=3)