# More LOTR musing: how big is the Shire (area and population)? And... how inbred are Hobbits?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 10, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193 "2011-10-10T16:39:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/41 "2011-10-14T20:23:07Z")
There’s also the fact that the ages from about 20 to majority at 33 have their own name among hobbits (“tweens”), and are regarded in much the same way that we regard the teens. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/42 "2011-10-14T20:55:30Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Sam married at 40, as far as I can tell. > > [Born April 2980, married May 3020.](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Samwise_Gamgee) > > (I’m taking it on faith that the wiki is accurate.) And I had a total brain fart. My 800 math SAT score was almost forty years ago, and apparently I’ve lost a lot of ground… ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/43 "2011-10-14T21:03:31Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I’m sending a Hobbit raiding party your way. They are nasty little bastards with devices not more complicated than a Luger or a garrote. > Cooperate, things will be more pleasant, you will suffer less. "But pity stayed his hand, _It’s a pity I’ve run out of bullets._ ---
**Author:** ![caligulathegod](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caligulathegod/32/9685_2.png) [@caligulathegod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulathegod)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/44 "2011-10-14T21:17:10Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > I never said that Tolkien treated Merry and Pippen as children. He did, IMO, talk about them as I would about a teenager or quite young adult, someone not quite fully responsible, although they grew up considerably during their adventure, as would be expected. Admittedly, I will grant that Sam married at the age of 30, but I suspect that marital ages among the lower classes were rather younger than those of the upper classes, and Sam, too, had been much matured by his journey. There is still nothing here that couldn’t be about a twentysomething year old human. As far as Pippin’s best friend being a 10 year old, I felt he was just as close or closer to that 10 year old’s dad. > [@Chronos](#): > > There’s also the fact that the ages from about 20 to majority at 33 have their own name among hobbits (“tweens”), and are regarded in much the same way that we regard the teens. Or a period of wild abandon and reckless indulgence. I don’t know how old you are, but most twenty year olds I know (and was) spent the decade partying. It was nothing to go on a drunk on a Tuesday. When I turned 30ish, I quit “partying” as did most of my friends (who had kids by then) and became a responsible adult. We are no different than Hobbits. My point is that our culture has this arbitrary 21 year point we call adulthood, but we spend a decade as children who can drive and legally drink. > [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s [not true.](http://www.tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Great_Plague) I _knew_ there was one. Couldn’t think of it. Still, it was an idealized time with “little” sickness. Even if we grant the Hobbits a _slightly_ longer lifespan, it still doesn’t necessarily follow they mature slower. Elves are specifically mentioned, but they live 1000s of years. All we have about Hobbits is circumstantial evidence. I could be wrong, of course. But I don’t think it’s the slam dunk everyone thinks it is. Hobbits are pretty much just humans with short stature and hairy feet and not a special race like Elves or Dwarves. We have no evidence they go through puberty later than humans. All we have is this vague “come of age” phrase that can mean anything. I suggest that it means when they come of an age where they settle down and become responsible citizens. Our 21 really has no _physical_ significance in our maturity. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/45 "2011-10-14T21:25:55Z")
> [@Oy!](#): > > I’ll bet you there weren’t any Cottons at that party, nor were the Sandymans likely to have been invited (at least to the one gross table, which appears to have been filled entirely with family or close family friends. Maybe the party as a whole.). You’re probably right, thinking about the etiquette of the party invitations: Bilbo sent out fancy invitations by mail and got written acceptances by mail\* (resulting in the need for extra postmen to handle the unusual volume of correspondence). Working-class hobbits who couldn’t read and write simply wouldn’t have been part of this social exchange. Although I bet that there was a sort of informal blurring of the boundary between servers and guests at the lower social level, and that the dozens of working-class hobbits who would have been helping out with the refreshments and so forth were also taking some time now and then to enjoy the food and entertainment. \*[hostess rant] The things that someone in Tolkien’s social environment could just blithely take for granted. Have **you** tried getting RSVPs, even electronic or verbal ones, out of the people you ask to a party lately? (grumble grumble) [/hostess rant] ---
**Author:** ![flano1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f14d63/32.png) [@flano1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flano1)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/46 "2011-10-14T21:38:39Z")
slight hijack…two days and filming starts on The Hobbit! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/47 "2011-10-14T22:56:01Z")
> [@flano1](#): > > slight hijack…two days and filming starts on The Hobbit! I thought they were already filming. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![caligulathegod](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caligulathegod/32/9685_2.png) [@caligulathegod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulathegod)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/48 "2011-10-14T23:07:03Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I thought they were already filming. 😕 They are doing it in spurts. They are coming back from a break. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/49 "2011-10-15T00:16:31Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re probably right, thinking about the etiquette of the party invitations: Bilbo sent out fancy invitations by mail and got written acceptances by mail\* (resulting in the need for extra postmen to handle the unusual volume of correspondence). Working-class hobbits who couldn’t read and write simply wouldn’t have been part of this social exchange. Y’know, I honestly never actually made that connection. I knew that Bilbo’s invitations were mostly via mail, and I knew that the Sam’s dad considered literacy uncommon, but I somehow never put 2 and 2 together. As an aside, when they made the movies, they really should have given the head electrician a cameo as Hamfast Gamgee. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/50 "2011-10-15T02:35:58Z")
> [@caligulathegod](#): > > They are doing it in spurts. > > … Ewww. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/51 "2011-10-15T03:08:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > You’re probably right, thinking about the etiquette of the party invitations: Bilbo sent out fancy invitations by mail and got written acceptances by mail\* (resulting in the need for extra postmen to handle the unusual volume of correspondence). Working-class hobbits who couldn’t read and write simply wouldn’t have been part of this social exchange. > > Although I bet that there was a sort of informal blurring of the boundary between servers and guests at the lower social level, and that the dozens of working-class hobbits who would have been helping out with the refreshments and so forth were also taking some time now and then to enjoy the food and entertainment. “Practically everybody living near was invited. A very few were overlooked by accident, but as they turned up all the same, that did not matter.” – “A Long-Expected Party”. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/52 "2011-10-15T03:33:56Z")
One must wonder, though, whether Bilbo’s (or Tolkien’s) notion of “everyone” would correspond to our modern notion. One is reminded of the Victorian era when everyone had live-in servants… Except for the majority of the population who _were_ the live-in servants. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/53 "2011-10-15T03:35:20Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > “Practically everybody living near was invited. A very few were overlooked by accident, but as they turned up all the same, that did not matter.” – “A Long-Expected Party”. Not necessarily significant. Especially in a class-based society, “everybody” generally means “every member of the particular social groups for whom participation is appropriate” rather than “every living person”. When the lady of the house in, say, a British drama set in a wealthy London suburb in the 1930’s says “We’re having a dance for Priscilla on Friday, I’ve invited absolutely everybody in town”, she does not mean that she expects the housemaid’s mother to show up among the guests. ETA: Aaaaand scooped by **Chronos**. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/54 "2011-10-15T09:16:38Z")
Well, there’s your insistence on the one hand that things simply _must_ be as you theorise, and on the other hand there’s what the Prof wrote as quoted above and also: > [@The Gaffer](#): > > "But they do things proper at Bag End. Our Sam says that _everyone_’s going to be invited to the party, and there’s going to be presents, mark you, presents for all – this very month as is. > [@Narrator](#): > > The purchase of provisions fell to almost nothing throughout the district in the ensuing weeks. > [@Narrator](#): > > But, of course, most of the [presents] were given where they would be wanted and welcome. The poorer hobbits, and especially those of Bagshot Row, did very well. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/55 "2011-10-15T09:36:22Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > It seems to me that the hobbit population has a lot of “confirmed bachelors”. That may have something to do with their limited fertility. Prologue, _Concerning Hobbits_: “Bilbo and Frodo Baggins were as bachelors quite exceptional”. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/56 "2011-10-15T15:44:19Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > That’s part of what I had in mind. I have a vivid mental image of Farmer Cotton, calmly smoking his pipe and waiting to confront a troop of armed Men. I’m not entirely sure the scale matters so much in terms of courage, though. Farmer Cotton isn’t a typical Hobbit either, he knows Tom Bombadil. His farm hands seem right up for a scrap when it comes to it though. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/57 "2011-10-15T16:23:20Z")
Farmer Cotton doesn’t know Tom Bombadil; that’s Farmer Maggot. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/58 "2011-10-15T17:16:01Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Farmer Cotton doesn’t know Tom Bombadil; that’s Farmer Maggot. Oh God. _buries head in hands_ A schoolboy error on my part. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/59 "2011-10-15T17:57:03Z")
Like my taking 1380 from 1420 and getting 30? Yeah, I wouldn’t know what that’s like. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193/60 "2011-10-17T06:43:08Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Well, there’s your insistence on the one hand that things simply _must_ be as you theorise, and on the other hand there’s what the Prof wrote as quoted above and also: […] > > “But, of course, most of the [presents] were given where they would be wanted and welcome. The poorer hobbits, and especially those of Bagshot Row, did very well.” Receiving presents in honor of Bilbo’s birthday/departure != receiving official invitation to attend Bilbo’s party. The guests did receive various favors and so forth at the party itself, but there was also a big distribution of gifts after Bilbo was gone. Like I said, there may well have been lots of working-class hobbits sharing the fun on a lower rung at the party. But “what the Prof wrote” about the invitation-and-acceptance process quite clearly seems to indicate that at least the vast majority of the official guests were literate. That’s not my “theorizing”, it’s what’s in the book. The thing is that it’s not immediately obvious from Tolkien’s descriptions exactly how the different social classes of the Shire interacted on all occasions, and different cites quoted in isolation can easily seem to point to different interpretations. Reasonable interpretations may disagree without either one of them being as obviously and indisputably right as you seem to think yours is. What seems to me most reasonable, based on the totality of the descriptions, is that Bilbo’s many guests were mostly hobbits of his own or similar social class, and that neither they nor their working-class neighbors would have seen anything incongruous in describing such a party as “inviting everybody”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-musing-how-big-is-the-shire-area-and-population-and-how-inbred-are-hobbits/599193.md?page=4)