# More LOTR questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 9, 2018, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-questions/824220 "2018-11-09T02:06:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-questions/824220/21 "2018-11-10T15:39:14Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > I’m borrowing this little idea from Donald F. Tovey, who was an English music expert: > > If someone like Tolkien couldn’t make up his mind, we have no business making it up for him. I had not seen that quote before, but I heartily agree with it! Thanks for sharing it. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-questions/824220/22 "2018-11-10T16:43:56Z")
An admirable sentiment. It should be taken to heart by those who have “finished” several of his languages, creating things like the Neo-Sindarin used in Jackson atrocious movies, which smooths out the irregularities and gaps in Tolkien’s work, creating a blandness that was foreign to Tolkien’s language aesthetics. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-questions/824220/23 "2018-11-10T21:13:32Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > It’s hard to do the science on that because orcs seem to exist solely to perform violence on everything they see, including other orcs. And every encounter that doesn’t kill them makes them wiser, but a little more maimed. I reckon that disfigured one in charge of the siege of Gondor was truly ancient. Like, 25 years old maybe? That’s Gothmog. Many argue that Gothmog was one of the Nine\*. > I almost wrote “nice” which changes the meaning quite a bit. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2018, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-questions/824220/24 "2018-11-11T00:24:53Z")
Not to be confused with the other Gothmog, who was a Balrog. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-questions/824220/25 "2018-11-11T01:15:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Not to be confused with the other Gothmog, who was a Balrog. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2018, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-questions/824220/26 "2018-11-11T02:02:27Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > I’m borrowing this little idea from Donald F. Tovey, who was an English music expert: > > If someone like Tolkien couldn’t make up his mind, we have no business making it up for him. > [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I had not seen that quote before, but I heartily agree with it! Thanks for sharing it. He didn’t say it about Tolkien. His context was having to edit the piano music of Beethoven, and what to do with the inconsistencies he encountered there. Beethoven would sometimes write out a repeat of the exact same music (i.e. on the very next page, not months later or something) and write the details differently. Sloppy/rushed writing, or intentional variety? Tovey’s solution: Other than correcting glaringly-obvious mistakes, print such inconsistencies detail for detail, and let the reader face the confusion, instead of pedantically editing the inconsistencies into agreement. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2018, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-questions/824220/27 "2018-11-11T02:56:05Z")
I don’t find the ambiguity at all a problem, given the framing story. Tolkien supposedly found and translated stuff written by people involved at the time. It could easily be that no one quite knows the true origin of the Orcs, and there were many different stories. Maybe people have been struggling to make it work with the idea of only good being able to create. I find it adds verisimilitude that not everything is known. Edit: it even explains inconsistencies in the Hobbit and LOTR, really. Different authors, possibly passed through different copies (like parts of the Bible), could lead to inconsistencies. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2018, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-questions/824220/28 "2018-11-11T03:20:39Z")
Maybe IRC’s are redeemable in principle, but not in practice. Like Dr. Faustus. He knew he could honestly confess his sin and be redeemed, but was incapable of actually doing it. Can you even imagine a being as corrupt as an orc ever wanting to be good? Hey! Don’t look at me like that! Racism is a virtue in Middle Earth! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-questions/824220/29 "2018-11-11T20:13:59Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > I’m borrowing this little idea from Donald F. Tovey, who was an English music expert: > > If someone like Tolkien couldn’t make up his mind, we have no business making it up for him. Well put. > [@BigT](#): > > I don’t find the ambiguity at all a problem, given the framing story. Tolkien supposedly found and translated stuff written by people involved at the time. It could easily be that no one quite knows the true origin of the Orcs, and there were many different stories. Maybe people have been struggling to make it work with the idea of only good being able to create. > > I find it adds verisimilitude that not everything is known. > > Edit: it even explains inconsistencies in the Hobbit and LOTR, really. Different authors, possibly passed through different copies (like parts of the Bible), could lead to inconsistencies. Likewise. Not that that’s going to keep us from talking about it at length and trying to figure it all out, of course…! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-lotr-questions/824220.md?page=1)