# More love from the Jesus fan club **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 15, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189 "2005-02-15T14:13:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/1 "2005-02-15T14:13:56Z")
On [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/02/12/bible.class.ap/index.html), there’s a story about a rural Virginia school district that incorporates Bible lessons into the elementary school curriculum. Of course, the kids take the Bible lessons at a local church and one can have one’s children opt out, but the workaround the Constitution is the least of the problems. What struck me was an exchange with one little girl: > [@](#): > > Beverly Ridell, who grew up going to the Staunton schools, teaches first- and second-grade Sunday school at church and opposes religious classes during school time. > > “I asked them whether Jesus was a Christian and they said ‘yes.’ When I said, ‘Jesus was a Jew,’ one girl said, 'But Jesus was a good person,”’ Ridell said. Is this what the Bible thumpers are teaching their kids, that being Jewish means you’re not a good person? What other bigotry and hate mongering is being passed down to kids with this superstitious nonsense? ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/2 "2005-02-15T14:23:30Z")
So do you thing for that whole “Body of chrirst” thing, he just bit his nails or something? ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/3 "2005-02-15T14:44:21Z")
From the CNN link in the OP: > [@](#): > > The Bible classes began in Virginia in 1929 after a majority of students failed a simple Bible test. Heh. “The Serpent of Rehaboam?! The Well of Zohasadar?! The Bridal Feast of Beth Chedreharazeb?!” ---
**Author:** ![Phatlewt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a698b9/32.png) [@Phatlewt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phatlewt)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/4 "2005-02-15T15:09:00Z")
I don’t see how it works around the constitution at all. Public school dollars are used for Christian religious education. The school shuttles them to the church. What workaround? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/5 "2005-02-15T15:10:18Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Is this what the Bible thumpers are teaching their kids, that being Jewish means you’re not a good person? > > What other bigotry and hate mongering is being passed down to kids with this superstitious nonsense? I would not be surprised to find that the kids are getting any amount of mis-information and outright lies. \ She probably has never met a Jew. I know of people (well, two) who still think that Hitler didn’t get enough of ‘em. And I know folks(many more than 2) who blame the Jews for Jesus’ death. Yet one more reason why I am disenchanted with Christianity as a whole. God I believe in–but the shit that has gone down in the name of His son is too much for this soccer mom… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/6 "2005-02-15T15:15:06Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Is this what the Bible thumpers are teaching their kids, that being Jewish means you’re not a good person? What, you want theological correctness and complexity from a second grader? That question looked like a setup to me. I’ve always felt the answer to things like this isn’t to restrict or ban anything, but to bring it all in. Would the other students appreciate learning about the customs and beliefs of their Jewish classmates? I’d bet they would. And the Jewish classmates would be well served learning about Christian history and culture, in a nation that is overwhelmingly Christian. Atheist students certainly should be exposed and educated about these faiths, so that they can evaluate them critically without causing offense (by, say, calling it superstitious nonsense). And other students should at the same time respect the rights of their atheist classmates. Banning discussions, symbols and prayer seems anti-educational to me, and is at odds with an American culture that value these things. I think ending this tradition, therefore, would go too far. Opening it up to other faiths would be more worthwhile. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/7 "2005-02-15T15:27:24Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > On [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/02/12/bible.class.ap/index.html), there’s a story about a rural Virginia school district that incorporates Bible lessons into the elementary school curriculum. Of course, the kids take the Bible lessons at a local church and one can have one’s children opt out, but the workaround the Constitution is the least of the problems. What struck me was an exchange with one little girl: > > Is this what the Bible thumpers are teaching their kids, that being Jewish means you’re not a good person? > > What other bigotry and hate mongering is being passed down to kids with this superstitious nonsense? Children are funny beings and what they learn isn’t necessarily what was taught. I dunno that I would base my opinions on the thoughts of one young child. ---
**Author:** ![Phatlewt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a698b9/32.png) [@Phatlewt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phatlewt)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/8 "2005-02-15T15:32:25Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I’ve always felt the answer to things like this isn’t to restrict or ban anything, but to bring it all in. Would the other students appreciate learning about the customs and beliefs of their Jewish classmates? I’d bet they would. And the Jewish classmates would be well served learning about Christian history and culture, in a nation that is overwhelmingly Christian. > > Atheist students certainly should be exposed and educated about these faiths, so that they can evaluate them critically without causing offense (by, say, calling it superstitious nonsense). And other students should at the same time respect the rights of their atheist classmates. > > Banning discussions, symbols and prayer seems anti-educational to me, and is at odds with an American culture that value these things. I think ending this tradition, therefore, would go too far. Opening it up to other faiths would be more worthwhile. The students aren’t studying faith **s**. Why are they only learning about the Bible? I’m sure that they spend lots of time talking about the Tanakh, or the Quran. Religious tolerance is a worthy cause, but this isn’t about teaching religious tolerance. This is about a public school teaching children about Christian morals. (As well as some rather un-Christian morals like intolerance, it would seem.) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/9 "2005-02-15T15:40:15Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > What, you want theological correctness and complexity from a second grader? That question looked like a setup to me. > > I’ve always felt the answer to things like this isn’t to restrict or ban anything, but to bring it all in. Would the other students appreciate learning about the customs and beliefs of their Jewish classmates? I’d bet they would. I’ll take that bet. > [@](#): > > And the Jewish classmates would be well served learning about Christian history and culture, in a nation that is overwhelmingly Christian. What an obnoxiously patronizing thing to say to Jewish Americans. For one thing, thing American culture is already saturated with overbearing, Christian Religiosity. For another thing, it is not for you or the government to decide what Jewish kids would be “well served” to learn. I don’t see how they’d be well served at all. Public schools are supposed to be a sanctuary from that crap. > [@](#): > > Atheist students certainly should be exposed and educated about these faiths, so that they can evaluate them critically without causing offense (by, say, calling it superstitious nonsense) > > And other students should at the same time respect the rights of their atheist classmates. Now you want to dictate what students have the right to believe and say about other religions. Atheists have a right to say that religion is superstitious nonsense and theists have a right to say that atheists are Godless heathens. This is America. We have the right to disrespect each other. Kids should be taught that others have the right to believe and practice as they wish and that’s it. They have no obligation at all to respect the beliefs themselves. I think people have the right to belong to “race religions.” That doesn’t mean I have the slightest bit of respect for them or that i won’t tell them to their faces that their beliefs are moronic. > [@](#): > > Banning discussions, symbols and prayer seems anti-educational to me, and is at odds with an American culture that value these things. I think ending this tradition, therefore, would go too far. Opening it up to other faiths would be more worthwhile. No one has ever banned discussions, symbols or prayers in schools. You can wear a big ass cross and talk about Jesus in the lunchroom and pray all you want. It just can’t be initated or led by the school. The story in the OP has nothing to do with education anyway. It’s specific proselytization of a specific religion. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/10 "2005-02-15T15:47:46Z")
> [@Phatlewt](#): > > The students aren’t studying faith **s**. Why are they only learning about the Bible? I’m sure that they spend lots of time talking about the Tanakh, or the Quran. Religious tolerance is a worthy cause, but this isn’t about teaching religious tolerance. This is about a public school teaching children about Christian morals. (As well as some rather un-Christian morals like intolerance, it would seem.) Not to mention this isn’t teaching kids \*about \* that faith, but rather, teaching them the faith itself. I’m atheist. If my kid had to learn about Christianity other than the \*\*brief \*\* covering it should receive inasmuch it relates to history, I would want: This is Christianity. Here is a list of its beliefs. Here are a list of the good things that Christianity has caused throughout history. Here is another list of all the bad things that have happened throughout history in the name of Christianity, or because of Christianity. And so on and so forth for all religions. Seeing as I will probably never get such a class, I don’t want them learning this religion. There are some I wouldn’t mind, such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Daoism, or really, most of the Eastern religions barring Islam. I don’t want them to learn at an impressionable age any religion that says in any way, “We are God’s children and you are not, unless you do this,”, whatever \*this \* may be. All three of the world’s major religions do this although I have to admit Judaism is a great deal less pushy and arrogant about this belief. It’s bad enough they have to hear it from their friends. I got this all the time as a child. “Why aren’t you Christian? Why don’t you love Jesus?” I don’t need them feeling inferior because of school. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/11 "2005-02-15T15:49:18Z")
> [@](#): > > _Open up the gates of the church and let me out of here > Too many people have lied in the name of Christ > For anyone to heed the call_ - Graham Nash ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/12 "2005-02-15T15:53:52Z")
Actually, I’m going to take back some of what I said above. I think a basic world religions class could be beneficial if it’s taught in a strictly non-devotional sense and just gives some basic facts about what each tradition is about. I do think that most Americans are woefully misinformed and ignorant about traditions other than their own. I just think you have to be careful not to teach that any one religion is more “true” than any other. I also think that it’s going to be difficult for some people to grasp that. Even in college world religion classes I saw Christian Fundamentalist students getting their panties in a wad because the prof would not say that the angel didn’t really talk to Mohammed or that the Jews were wrong about the Messiah. They really think this stuff is settled fact and they’re shocked and insulted when a figure of authority won’t endorse those assumptions. There were also Muslim, Jewish and even a Hindu student in those classes but only the Christian fundies ever had a problem with them. If we start trying to teach this stuff in public schools, be prepared for an onslaught of outraged, bigoted parents. They absolutely do NOT want anyone teaching their kids that Islam is just as valid as Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/13 "2005-02-15T15:56:23Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I do think that most Americans are woefully misinformed and ignorant about traditions other than their own. Not that there’s a shortage of Americans who are woefully misinformed and ignorant about their own traditions… ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/14 "2005-02-15T16:00:56Z")
I wonder if any of the Christians in this town thought of teaching their children in church, and at home, and leaving the government out of the picture in this critical area of personal faith, and learning. I suppose one would have to love their children, and God more than the local political party for that idea to seem reasonable. Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/15 "2005-02-15T16:01:31Z")
> [@](#): > > “The people in those communities still have strong Christian faith and want their children to learn this,” said JoAnne Shirley, state director of Weekday Religious Education, the private group that offers the lessons. If they want their brats to learn this, then they should teach it after school and on the weekends. Why do they want their government teaching them this stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/16 "2005-02-15T16:21:51Z")
The Supreme Court has endorsed the teaching of religion as history, comparative religion, the Bible as literature, and the like. If the program in Virginia were reconfigured to concentrate on these topics, it would pass muster. A lot of people seem to confuse teaching about religion with religious instruction. For instance, religious instruction in the Christian tradition cannot happen without prayer. If the students aren’t actually praying, then they’re merely learning about the Bible, which is a protected activity. I’m happy to agree with **Diogenes** here, and this happens so seldom it should be remarked upon. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > No one has ever banned discussions, symbols or prayers in schools. You can wear a big ass cross and talk about Jesus in the lunchroom and pray all you want. It just can’t be initated or led by the school. Sadly, **Diogenes** , you’re wrong here. Schools sometimes infringe on the freedom of religion possessed by individual students. I could find cites for this all day. For now, I’ll just quote two: [School agrees to stop censoring religious yearbook entries.](http://www.aclu.org/StudentsRights/StudentsRights.cfm?ID=15680&c=159) [Student suspended for “hexing” her teacher. This can easily be considered a ban on private prayer.](http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=8162&c=139) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/17 "2005-02-15T16:28:37Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Sadly, **Diogenes** , you’re wrong here. Schools sometimes infringe on the freedom of religion possessed by individual students. I could find cites for this all day. For now, I’ll just quote two: > > [School agrees to stop censoring religious yearbook entries.](http://www.aclu.org/StudentsRights/StudentsRights.cfm?ID=15680&c=159) > [Student suspended for “hexing” her teacher. This can easily be considered a ban on private prayer.](http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=8162&c=139) No, I’m not wrong. When schools do this they are violating the law. There is no LAW against students wearing religious symbols or praying or talking about religion. They have every _legal right_ to do so. There are some teachers and administrators who don’t understand the law and make mistakes. Those mistakes get corrected. I am still right. No child is forbidden BY LAW from praying, etc. in school. The establishment restrictions apply only to the instututions, not to the students. It’s unfortunate that the religious right has chosen to distort this fact for its own propaganda purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/18 "2005-02-15T16:38:07Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > If they want their brats to learn this, then they should teach it after school and on the weekends. Why do they want their government teaching them this stuff? What’s to stop districts from configuring the schoolday to include “free time” in the middle where such instruction may happen, as seems to be the case here? What makes this “free time” different in any way from weekends and evenings? Interesting aside, a lot of Pennsylvania school districts have the first day of deer season off. Is this an endorsement of hunting explicitly, or merely an accomodation of local custom? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/19 "2005-02-15T16:44:09Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > What’s to stop districts from configuring the schoolday to include “free time” in the middle where such instruction may happen, as seems to be the case here? What makes this “free time” different in any way from weekends and evenings? Because this “free time” would not be free but would be on the tax payer dime. > [@](#): > > Interesting aside, a lot of Pennsylvania school districts have the first day of deer season off. Is this an endorsement of hunting explicitly, or merely an accomodation of local custom? The Constitution does not forbid public institutions from endorsing hunting. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/20 "2005-02-15T16:49:49Z")
> [@](#): > > What, you want theological correctness and complexity from a second grader? Apparently this little girl was able to grasp the message “Jews are bad people” from whoever told it to her. I don’t know what the more complex version of that is, maybe “Jews are bad people, but don’t say so in public.” If she had known this, there wouldn’t have been any problem, right? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189.md?page=2)