# More love from the Jesus fan club **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 15, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189 "2005-02-15T14:13:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/81 "2005-02-18T17:35:56Z")
Talon, to continue the hijack, the point remains, the disciples were jewish. All of them. All twelve. And Judas. Jewish people. John the Baptist? Jewish. Paul? Jewish. Mary? Jewish. Joseph? Jewish. “King of the Jews”, remember? [http://www.amfi.org/antisemit.htm](http://www.amfi.org/antisemit.htm) Christian site, pointing out that the disciples were jewish. It’s a bit hard to find a cite, as it’s so, uhm, blatantly known. What did you think they were, followers of Mithra? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/82 "2005-02-18T19:53:04Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by chukhung > > Now I’m curious. 'Cause when I hear the word “Ramadan”, it makes me think of one of the finest Japanese movies ever made. > > > > Which bad Japanese movie are those heathen kids thinking of? > > Rodan Silly me. I would have expected Gameramadan. Oh, and **E-Sabbath**? > [@](#): > > What did you think they were, followers of Mithra? That would be Mothra. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/83 "2005-02-18T20:30:13Z")
Hm. Many small jewish men, singing, as Jesus on a Cross flies into view, shedding holy blood. He corkscrews, using his crown of thorns as an auger to dig into Godzilla’s side. I’d pay to see that. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/84 "2005-02-18T20:44:53Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Banning discussions, symbols and prayer seems anti-educational to me, and is at odds with an American culture that value these things. I think ending this tradition, therefore, would go too far. Opening it up to other faiths would be more worthwhile. Banning discussion is anti-educational. Banning prayer should be a no-brainer. Would the school bus the kids to the nearest mosque and teach Islam to the kids who were interested? Would they do it as part of an “educational” program? Feh. ---
**Author:** ![Naz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e99b99/32.png) [@Naz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naz)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/85 "2005-02-19T00:45:18Z")
I haven’t read all of this thread, but I disagree with the school doing this. Why? Because I grew up in rural Virginia. When I was in third grade, my family moved me to a new elementary school in a very small community. Once a week in our classes, we’d be put on the bus and taken down to the nearby Methodist church for Bible stories. I had already started developing a mistrust of religion by then, and this seemed to be incredibly pushy to me. If you opted out of the class, there wasn’t anything to do back at school, and the few times I did stay back, my classmates teased me. I also got a ‘why wouldn’t you want to go’ reaction from my teachers, which confused me. I knew I wasn’t a bad person for not going, but I looked up to my teachers, and the subtle differences in treatment when I opted out was upsetting to me as a child. I was in high school when VA instituted that moment of silence for ‘prayer, meditation or quiet reflection’ crap, too. Kids who didn’t agree with it and protested were disciplined. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/86 "2005-02-19T01:09:37Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Well, she’s starting with a flawed premise right there. Christianity has nothing to do with virtue or goodness; it only demands obedience to power. Fear of hell is the primary, overwhelming tool that evangelizers wield to capture their prey. One doesn’t hear “believe this because it is right and good to do so”; rather, it’s “believe this or suffer the consequences.” > > I have observed that among Christians one can be as hateful, bigoted, backbiting, and malicious as one pleases, and when called on it, the Christian in question can excuse himself by saying, “I’m not perfect, just forgiven.” It’s an ethical “Get Out of Jail Free” card, which is one of the many reasons that I have so little respect for most of them and why I ceased to believe. If that’s your understanding of Christianity, then it’s a good thing you dropped it. I wish _all_ the people who took such a simple-minded view of religion and ethics would stop calling themselves Christians; it would make it a lot easier for those of us who do get what it’s really all about. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/87 "2005-02-19T03:14:59Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > If that’s your understanding of Christianity, then it’s a good thing you dropped it. You know perfectly well my understanding of the history of Christianity, and you also know well that the message of liberation Jesus taught has been drowned out by legalism and fearmongering. Stop being so defensive and just admit that your religion has been hijacked by Pharisees. We know you’re a good guy and that there are many good people who are Christian, but they aren’t running the churches. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/88 "2005-02-19T03:37:58Z")
A lot of folks in the thread here have expressed opinions about the constitutionality of this case. I have found that the Supreme Court has explicitly allowed such released time programs if they are voluntary and no public money is spent on religious instruction. The case was Zorach v. Clauson, decided in 1952. > [@](#): > > MR. JUSTICE DOUGLAS delivered the opinion of the Court. > > New York City has a program which permits its public schools to release students during the school day so that they may leave the school buildings and school grounds and go to religious centers for religious instruction or devotional exercises. A student is released on written request of his parents. Those not released stay in the classrooms. The churches make weekly reports to the schools, sending a list of children who have been released from public school but who have not reported for religious instruction. > > This “released time” program involves neither religious instruction in public school classrooms nor the expenditure [343 U.S. 306, 309] of public funds. All costs, including the application blanks, are paid by the religious organizations. The case is therefore unlike McCollum v. Board of Education, 333 U.S. 203 , which involved a “released time” program from Illinois. In that case the classrooms were turned over to religious instructors. We accordingly held that the program violated the First Amendment which (by reason of the Fourteenth Amendment) prohibits the states from establishing religion or prohibiting its free exercise. > > Appellants, who are taxpayers and residents of New York City and whose children attend its public schools, challenge the present law, contending it is in essence not different from the one involved in the McCollum case. Their argument, stated elaborately in various ways, reduces itself to this: the weight and influence of the school is put behind a program for religious instruction; public school teachers police it, keeping tab on students who are released; the classroom activities come to a halt while the students who are released for religious instruction are on leave; the school is a crutch on which the churches are leaning for support in their religious training; without the cooperation of the schools this “released time” program, [343 U.S. 306, 310] like the one in the McCollum case, would be futile and ineffective. > > …It takes obtuse reasoning to inject any issue of the “free exercise” of religion into the present case. No one is forced to go to the religious classroom and no religious exercise or instruction is brought to the classrooms of the public schools. A student need not take religious instruction. He is left to his own desires as to the manner or time of his religious devotions, if any. > > There is a suggestion that the system involves the use of coercion to get public school students into religious classrooms. There is no evidence in the record before us that supports that conclusion. The present record indeed tells us that the school authorities are neutral in this regard and do no more than release students whose parents so request. If in fact coercion were used, if it were established that any one or more teachers were using their office to persuade or force students to take the religious instruction, a wholly different case would be presented. Hence we put aside that claim of coercion [343 U.S. 306, 312] both as respects the “free exercise” of religion and “an establishment of religion” within the meaning of the First Amendment. > > Moreover, apart from that claim of coercion, we do not see how New York by this type of “released time” program has made a law respecting an establishment of religion within the meaning of the First Amendment. There is much talk of the separation of Church and State in the history of the Bill of Rights and in the decisions clustering around the First Amendment. See Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 ; McCollum v. Board of Education, supra. There cannot be the slightest doubt that the First Amendment reflects the philosophy that Church and State should be separated. And so far as interference with the “free exercise” of religion and an “establishment” of religion are concerned, the separation must be complete and unequivocal. The First Amendment within the scope of its coverage permits no exception; the prohibition is absolute. The First Amendment, however, does not say that in every and all respects there shall be a separation of Church and State. Rather, it studiously defines the manner, the specific ways, in which there shall be no concert or union or dependency one on the other. That is the common sense of the matter. Otherwise the state and religion would be aliens to each other - hostile, suspicious, and even unfriendly. Churches could not be required to pay even property taxes. Municipalities would not be permitted to render police or fire protection to religious groups. Policemen who helped parishioners into their places of worship would violate the Constitution. Prayers in our legislative halls; the appeals [343 U.S. 306, 313] to the Almighty in the messages of the Chief Executive; the proclamations making Thanksgiving Day a holiday; “so help me God” in our courtroom oaths - these and all other references to the Almighty that run through our laws, our public rituals, our ceremonies would be flouting the First Amendment. A fastidious atheist or agnostic could even object to the supplication with which the Court opens each session: “God save the United States and this Honorable Court.” > > We would have to press the concept of separation of Church and State to these extremes to condemn the present law on constitutional grounds. > > We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being. We guarantee the freedom to worship as one chooses. We make room for as wide a variety of beliefs and creeds as the spiritual needs of man deem necessary. We sponsor an attitude on the part of government that shows no partiality to any one group and that lets each flourish according to the zeal of its adherents and the appeal of its dogma. When the state [343 U.S. 306, 314] encourages religious instruction or cooperates with religious authorities by adjusting the schedule of public events to sectarian needs, it follows the best of our traditions. For it then respects the religious nature of our people and accommodates the public service to their spiritual needs. To hold that it may not would be to find in the Constitution a requirement that the government show a callous indifference to religious groups. That would be preferring those who believe in no religion over those who do believe. Government may not finance religious groups nor undertake religious instruction nor blend secular and sectarian education nor use secular institutions to force one or some religion on any person. But we find no constitutional requirement which makes it necessary for government to be hostile to religion and to throw its weight against efforts to widen the effective scope of religious influence. The government must be neutral when it comes to competition between sects. It may not thrust any sect on any person. It may not make a religious observance compulsory. It may not coerce anyone to attend church, to observe a religious holiday, or to take religious instruction. But it can close its doors or suspend its operations as to those who want to repair to their religious sanctuary for worship or instruction. No more than that is undertaken here. > > …In the McCollum case the classrooms were used for religious instruction and the force of the public school was used to promote that instruction. Here, as we have said, the public schools do no more than accommodate their schedules to a program of outside religious instruction. We follow the McCollum case. 8 But we cannot expand it to cover the present released time program unless separation of Church and State means that public institutions can make no adjustments of their schedules to accommodate the religious needs of the people. We cannot read into the Bill of Rights such a philosophy of hostility to religion. I especially liked the part where Justice William O. Douglas labeled as extreme views toward public faith routinely displayed on this board. I’ll have to remember that one for the future. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/89 "2005-02-19T04:38:37Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > You know perfectly well my understanding of the history of Christianity, and you also know well that the message of liberation Jesus taught has been drowned out by legalism and fearmongering. > > Stop being so defensive and just admit that your religion has been hijacked by Pharisees. We know you’re a good guy and that there are many good people who are Christian, but they aren’t running the churches. I realized immediately after I posted that it was going to come across as just petty one-upmanship, but the impetus behind it was genuine – I keep thinking that I _do_ know perfectly well your stance on Christianity, and then I read something from you like the bit I quoted. We’ve gone back and forth on this plenty of times before, and I _think_ I’ve got an understanding where you’re coming from and I believe we’re headed to the same place, just through different paths. But the thing I absolutely do not agree with is the statement that my religion has been “hijacked,” that the people who are subverting and corrupting my religion have already won. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/90 "2005-02-19T05:57:13Z")
A somewhat personally shameful anecdote. When I was about eleven, I met a Jewish girl. I was not exactly religiously savvy; I’d gone to pretty reasonable Lutheran churches my whole life. I’d heard of Jews but didn’t really know what being Jewish meant, and Christian had always been connoted ‘good’. So the girl mentions that she is Jewish. I don’t remember exactly what I said, but I was surprised to learn that Jews were not Christian. Heheh. Now, I was again not religiously savvy. My parents were/are liberal. I learned a great deal starting at that point. I did not have any belief that Jews were bad or anything of that nature. But Christian = Good in my eleven year old mind, and what this little girl said sounds like something I might have said. YMMV, naturally. But I was a pretty smart kid. I’d known children from all manner of cultures; I wasn’t restricted to only WASPs. I was somewhat culturally aware, just not very good at making connections. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2005, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/91 "2005-02-19T09:39:34Z")
Thanks, **LPN**. I think that pretty much addresses the point I was making. I think it’s a big stretch to go from the observation that some church-going kiddies are not well versed in comparative religion and the awareness that there are extremely good people to be found in pretty much any religion you care to name, to “Eek, the fundies are bringing up their children to be Jew-haters! Just as I’ve been saying all along! The sky is falling, we must go and see the king!”. The sad part is, in the main I find **gobear** intelligent, informed, articulate and witty. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/92 "2005-02-20T04:55:47Z")
**Malacandra** , I emphatically do not believe that all fundamentalists hate Jews, or are raising their kids to hate Jews. Neither should you state that _none_ are doing so. An important thing you and I seem differ on: how much of a connection there is between religious training and prejudice. You seem to believe it’s smaller than I do. We are both products of our experiences, and will have a very hard time ‘proving’ either view. The focus of this thread has been fundamentalist Christians, but I don’t mean to single them out, because I think it’s part of a bigger phenomenon. Specifically, cultural isolation. FTR, one of the most vicious anti-semites I ever knew was a devout Catholic (he got to meet the Pope when he came here in 1996). He was my boss’s boss, and he apparently had assumed I was Italian (which nationality my last name is often mistaken for). He expressed to me some opinions on Jews that would have made Mark Fuhrman proud – his hopes included “piling them up and setting them on fire”. Interestingly, this guy wasn’t too crazy about Protestants either – he cried on my shoulder when his son wanted to marry a Baptist girl that he’d met at college in the south. After my promotion came through, I finally had to let him know that I didn’t share his faith – or his prejudices – by telling him, “G., I wouldn’t worry about it. My brother married a Catholic girl, and they’re doing fine”. 🙂 I later learned that this guy had grown up in a big-city neighborhood where everybody was Italian. I believe that one thing that can lead to religious/ethnic/cultural intolerance is never having contact with anyone who doesn’t share your religion/ethnicity/culture, especially during your childhood. This can happen out in small towns in the red states, and it can happen in urban neighborhoods. It can happen anywhere in the world – do you think fundamentalist Muslims in the Middle East who think we are the ‘Great Satan’ have had much contact with Americans? I here defer to **Liberal** ’s frequent advice, originated by **Jesus** : \*love your neighbor as yourself. \* I like this advice a lot. If I believed there was a God, I would second the admonition to love Him just as much. ---
**Author:** ![EmeraldGrue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dc4da7/32.png) [@EmeraldGrue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmeraldGrue)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/93 "2005-02-20T15:04:53Z")
> [@Little Plastic Ninja](#): > > So the girl mentions that she is Jewish. I don’t remember exactly what I said, but I was surprised to learn that Jews were not Christian. Aheheheh. I went to a rural high school, and recall culturally isolated friends’ astonishment when they learned that Muslims didn’t celebrate Christmas and Jews worshipped in synagogues. (“So you’re having the bat mitzvah at the syg…syn…Jewish church, eh?” I kid not.) Our longtime computer teacher, a devout man who often gave sermons at his Gospel Hall, thought that Jews still sacrificed animals for atonement, just as described in Leviticus. :smack: Then there were the schoolkids, led by the brother of one of abovesaid friends, who ran after a boy from the other Jewish family in town, calling him “dirty Jew”. And my friend who went around saying that Islam was a cult, something she had apparently learned at her youth group. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/94 "2005-02-20T15:16:01Z")
In my old neighborhood we had Italians, Irish, Catholics, Protestants of various types, and Jews. To all of us, as kids, it was a non-issue. When did everything change so drastically? ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/95 "2005-02-20T15:59:30Z")
**SteveG1** , maybe the reason it was a non-issue for you is that _your_ neighborhood _had_ all those different people living in it? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/96 "2005-02-20T17:46:22Z")
The teacher sounded like she wanted to build tolerance for Judaism by pointing out that Jesus was jewish. It was the little girl who said ‘but he was a good person’, not the teacher. If the teacher had said it it’d be different. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/97 "2005-02-20T18:09:47Z")
I think you may be conflating the two points that this thread has broken into: the propriety/constitutionality of using public funds to teach Bible classes; and whether the little girl has been taught that Jews are bad. I agree that it would be worse if the teacher had conveyed anti-semitism to the students, but I think that people raising their kids that way is not a good thing, especially if they call themselves Christians. (And I acknowledge that we don’t all agree on whether the girl has in fact been taught anti-semitism by anyone). ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/98 "2005-02-20T18:23:24Z")
Taking the position of devil’s advocate, isn’t it possible that the little girl meant “but He was a good person” in the sense of “but [notwithstanding any other consideration, such as whether He was a Jew or Gentile, it nevertheless remains that His chief identifying characteristic is that] He was a good person.”? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/99 "2005-02-20T18:36:55Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Taking the position of devil’s advocate, isn’t it possible that the little girl meant “but He was a good person” in the sense of “but [notwithstanding any other consideration, such as whether He was a Jew or Gentile, it nevertheless remains that His chief identifying characteristic is that] He was a good person.”? For a second grader? I doubt it. When I was in second grade, you had good people, and you had bad people. You wouldn’t say, “But it doesn’t matter that he was a (Jew/Christian/Muslim/Trekkie/)” Now, that’s not to say that I believed Jews were bad people-they weren’t, they were just, well, Jewish. They were just people, who believed something different. (And wrong, I thought at the time, but I also never thought they’d go to Hell-Hell was for BAD PEOPLE.) Kids at that age aren’t really up to that kind of logic yet, **Liberal**. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189/100 "2005-02-20T18:39:54Z")
In second grade, I thought Jehovah’s Witnesses worshipped a frog. I didn’t think they were bad, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-love-from-the-jesus-fan-club/290189.md?page=6)