# More Missing Nat. Guard Documents **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303 "2004-09-06T04:09:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/201 "2004-09-11T21:44:18Z")
I find all this speculation the be really amusing. After all, we’ll have a damn good idea about the doc’s authenticity in a few days or so. If CBS remains the only news organiztion that staunchly defends their authenticity, I think we can pretty much write them off. If the story persists, it will be a net plus for Bush, politically, as it will appear more like a dirty trick than anything else. If other news sources align with CBS, then we’ll see how the WH deals with it. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/202 "2004-09-11T22:00:57Z")
> [@pohjonen](#): > > In 1973, I worked at a newspaper where we did our captions on an IBM Composer. I don’t remember spacing coming out that good from there, either. Seems more likely to me that it could’ve come from the less expensive, less complicated IBM Executive. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/203 "2004-09-11T22:04:14Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If CBS remains the only news organiztion that staunchly defends their authenticity, I think we can pretty much write them off. Since when was news determined by consensus? Are you saying that [news that is underreported or get insufficient coverage](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=274991) “don’t count” and can be dismissed as never having happened? If CBS has their facts in place (and they’re still insisting they do), then it doesn’t matter how many other news organizations agree with them or not. As a prominent Republican President once noted, “Facts are inconvenient things.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/204 "2004-09-11T22:12:45Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Since when was news determined by consensus? Are you saying that [news that is underreported or get insufficient coverage](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=274991) “don’t count” and can be dismissed as never having happened? Nope. How could this item possibly be called “underreported”??? > [@](#): > > f CBS has their facts in place (and they’re still insisting they do), then it doesn’t matter how many other news organizations agree with them or not. If CBS has its facts in place, then other news outlets will come to the same conclusion. If they don’t, it will only be the rabid partisans, like you, who will believe it and it won’t matter one bit. Except that the more the rabid partisans bang this drum, the more sympathy votes Bush will get. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/205 "2004-09-11T22:38:54Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If the story persists, it will be a net plus for Bush, politically, as it will appear more like a dirty trick than anything else. Like the dirty-trick/Swift Boat-horseshit turned into such a net plus for Kerry, politically? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/206 "2004-09-11T23:44:06Z")
For those still clinging to the ‘Selectric Composer’ possibility, [here is a web site](http://shapeofdays.typepad.com/the_shape_of_days/2004/09/the_ibm_selectr.html) that shows actual attempts to duplicate the documents using the Selectric Composer and the Roman typeball (Selectric’s closest font to Times New Roman). The most damning evidence on that page, in my opinion, is the bit about the centered headings. The Selectric expert points out that manually centering proportional fonts is not easy, because you don’t know how long each line will be until you type it. So you eyeball it, try to get it close, or laboriously add up the sizes of each letter first and try to center it. But it’s a manual process, prone to small errors. The author on that page took all three centered headings and overlaid them. They matched exactly. Then he did the same thing in Word and overlaid it over the other three. All four matched perfectly. Conclusion: Those headings were not manually centered. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/207 "2004-09-11T23:57:34Z")
Perhaps they were using alien technology captured at area 51 Sam…I bet the experts didn’t take THAT into account. 😃 If this is a forgery or not, I guess I don’t see the importance of these documents. The only interesting thing I see coming out of this is, if it IS a forgery, CBS is going to look pretty bad. They will take a MAJOR hit on this. If the documents are real, its more of a ho hum I’d think. We ALREADY know pretty much all the important details about Bush’s service…or lack there of. I just don’t think anyone is going to care, except those who are already rabidly anti-Bush. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/208 "2004-09-11T23:57:48Z")
Not to mention, [the contents of the memos is questionable.](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationalpolitics/2002032742_bushguard11.html) > [@](#): > > The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to “sugarcoat” George W. Bush’s military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo supposedly was written, his service record shows. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/209 "2004-09-12T00:45:53Z")
Now, _that_ data point I find much more compelling than 6 pages of hand waving about fonts and kerning. ---
**Author:** ![xcheopis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bc8723/32.png) [@xcheopis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xcheopis)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/210 "2004-09-12T01:16:23Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The most damning evidence on that page, in my opinion, is the bit about the centered headings. The Selectric expert points out that manually centering proportional fonts is not easy, because you don’t know how long each line will be until you type it. So you eyeball it, try to get it close, or laboriously add up the sizes of each letter first and try to center it. But it’s a manual process, prone to small errors. You’d only have to eyeball frequently typed headings the first time, after which you know exactly how long each line will be. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/211 "2004-09-12T01:30:33Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Now, _that_ data point I find much more compelling than 6 pages of hand waving about fonts and kerning. What is truth and what is fiction here? Why is the Dallas Morning News’ report of Mr. Staudt’s discharge any more believable than the memos concerning Mr. Bush? Has _that_ document been checked for authenticity yet? I thought not. Even if verified, does it preclude Staudt retaining political influence in the Guard? No, it does not. There’s a lot of people who want to stand up for president Bush here. Apparently, people have been doing that for him all his life. I’d like to see the president stand up for himself, and _tell us_ what he knows about his loss of flight privileges. If the documents are bullshit, that word should come from the president’s lips, not from his legions of attack-monkeys. **Sam** had a point earlier when he said it might take the president a little time to make sure he’s got all his i’s dotted and t’s crossed. It took Kerry a while to get his act together vs the Swift Boat Liars, but in the end, we should expect no less from our president. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/212 "2004-09-12T02:10:55Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > What is truth and what is fiction here? Why is the Dallas Morning News’ report of Mr. Staudt’s discharge any more believable than the memos concerning Mr. Bush? Come, now. The date someone received a discharge from the Guard seems pretty easily verifiable. If Staudt was not discharged on or near that date, I’m betting we’ll hear about it pretty quickly. > [@](#): > > There’s a lot of people who want to stand up for president Bush here. Apparently, people have been doing that for him all his life. I’d like to see the president stand up for himself, and _tell us_ what he knows about his loss of flight privileges. If the documents are bullshit, that word should come from the president’s lips, not from his legions of attack-monkeys. Now this I agree with. Channeling yet another blog, it’s difficult to have a “He says, She says” situation if “she” won’t say anything. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/213 "2004-09-12T02:21:10Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Come, now. The date someone received a discharge from the Guard seems pretty easily verifiable. If Staudt was not discharged on or near that date, I’m betting we’ll hear about it pretty quickly. Agreed. It’s just too early to accept Staudt’s discharge date as the gospel truth yet. Once it is established, it still needs to be shown that he didn’t retain political influence. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/214 "2004-09-12T02:30:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Even if I were 100% sure that the documents were phonies because I had a photographic memory and knew absolutely that they were false, I wouldn’t say anything until I had some proof to back me up. But they did say something: they said that they had no reason to think the documents were anything other than authentic. Bush doesn’t have to remember specifics: he has to remember anything about the whole saga of what happened to conclude his guard service. In fact, he doesn’t have to do even that. You of course avoided the most important part of my argument: the part about the documents contradicting not George Bush’s perhaps many-holed memory, but contradicting the calculated stance of his entire talking point strategy on his guard service over the last four years. They said that he was grounded because he didn’t take his physical because he wasn’t going to fly his plane anymore, and indeed the plane wasn’t going to be flown anymore. The documents say the exact opposite (indeed, incontrovertible evidence has already shown some of that, such as the fact that his plane wasn’t going to be flown anymore, to be wrong). And yet, they have no reason to think they are anything other than authentic? Sorry, but that’s still a major red flag. Amusing: I was just watching the War Room, which contains a clip of George Bush Sr. attacking Clinton for being in Moscow when boys were being drafted out of the ghetto to fight our war. George Sr. hates America just like Michael Moore! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/215 "2004-09-12T06:02:40Z")
How about this then: _The Bush Administration knew they were fakes._ Bush and Cheney were looking at them, and Cheney says, “Holy shit, dude! These thinks are as fake as Dan Rather’s teeth. What should we do about it?” And Bush says, “Heh. We give 'em back and shrug, and see if we can’t get our opponent to hang itself on 'em.” The Bush administration is freerolling here. To the general public, even if true these documents aren’t going to hurt him. But if they come out and say, “These are fakes”, the story goes away and no one gets hurt. This way, they let Rather stick his neck out a mile, and the resulting train wreck might just smear onto the Democrats or even cause someone to cough up a source. And if that source is connected to the Kerry campaign, he’s finished. Just a thought. Here’s another: The document is a plant by the Bush administration - not necessarily to cause this type of scandal, but to simply taint the rest of the midly damning documents. Say you discover some documents that are available by FOI request. They’re cataloged, so you can’t steal them. How do you minimize their impact? You slide an obvious fake into the mix, so that the documents as a whole are discredited. That’s the classic way disinformation is spread - by ‘salting’ legitimate documents with fakes. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/216 "2004-09-12T06:45:55Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > For those still clinging to the ‘Selectric Composer’ possibility, [here is a web site](http://shapeofdays.typepad.com/the_shape_of_days/2004/09/the_ibm_selectr.html) that shows actual attempts to duplicate the documents using the Selectric Composer and the Roman typeball (Selectric’s closest font to Times New Roman)… I’m not sure that it had to be a Selectric Composer. [This page](http://www.microsparc.com/news.htm) has an example of something created on an IBM Executive typewriter. At first glance, it looks a lot like the memos to me. The left and right justification was done manually by the typist counting spaces but that’s not relevant to this issue. What’s relevant is the proportional font. At least it looks proportional to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/217 "2004-09-12T06:55:10Z")
Aside from the fixed type bar I mentioned in the GQ thread, I don’t think the Executive proportional spacing is as good as in the memo. It looks a little variable to me. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/218 "2004-09-12T07:13:22Z")
I posted this in the other thread so I’ll add it here also. Daily Koss has [a new page](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/10/205917/730) about this (it’s a different one than the one that’s been posted here previously). It’s by someone who _claims_ to be an expert and does sound like he knows what he’s talking about, for whatever that’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/219 "2004-09-12T07:55:10Z")
And yet more comparisons and information up at [LGF.](http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php) Also, [Drudge](http://www.drudgereport.com) is reporting that: > [@](#): > > Saturday, another retired Air National Guard officer came forward to attack CBSNEWS credibility. Retired Maj. Gen. Bobby W. Hodges, who was cited by a senior CBS official on Thursday as the network’s “trump card” in verifying the documents, said in an interview that he was “misled” by CBS and believed the documents to be forgeries. > > Hodges said that he was read only excerpts of the documents and never saw the documents. A CBS spokesman said the network stands by its report. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2004, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303/220 "2004-09-12T07:55:27Z")
What a horrible defense. His theory boils down to, “It’s not even proportional spacing - what you see is noise”. That allows him to declare that the document was produced on an IBM Selectric, a monospaced electric typewriter. His explanation for the ‘th’? Merely that a secretary must have typed this, and they’d know how to do that. He makes no attempt to address the line spacing (the odds that a monospaced font would have a line spacing such that it _exactly_ matches the line length of a proportionally-spaced Word document isn’t even discussed.) He doesn’t offer an examples of Selectric output, either. It’s just a rambling commentary coupled with his unsupported assertion that the documents are real. Then he adds this howler: > [@](#): > > Today at Body and Soul, Jeanne d’Arc wrote about the way Right and Left deal with uncertainty – “In general, people on the left face uncertainty the way I did in that post – asking for answers, and weighing evidence (and often giving people with an ax to grind more credit than they deserve). On the right, ‘evidence’ is just whatever supports what you want to believe.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-missing-nat-guard-documents/263303.md?page=12)