# More Muslim Marvelousness? Or More Radical Muslim Marvelousness? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 3, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403 "2011-03-03T19:59:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/61 "2011-03-05T15:53:08Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You know, once upon a time in this country it was decided that society sucked. Racism was the order of the day, and women didn’t have the same rights as men. > > Did the good liberals of the time run around warning us that we must not condemn all of society for these wrongs? That not everyone was involved in lynchings and that most men still treated women well? > > No, it was decided that society itself was at fault and had to change. > > Now, given that the ills inflicted upon not only those outside the Islamic faith but commonly within it as well, are much more repressive, brutal and sexist than was ever the case in American society of the fifties and early sixties, why is there not an even greater outcry from American liberals for change within Islamic societies? > > And why do American liberals who excoriate the Bush administration for torturing three Iraqis, not find the routine lashings of women objectionable enough to condemn Islamic societies who practice it? Surely being lashed with a whip 80 to 100 times for the offense of getting raped is worse torture than waterboarding? (Not to mention that it doesn’t even make sense - other than to make sure that if you’re raped you keep your mouth shut.) > > And why are American liberals not outraged at the forced marriages, honor killings and stonings that are routine widespread in many Islamic countries. > > Why is it that American feminists are not outraged and calling for Islam to cast off these horrid practices against women? And why isn’t the “individual freedoms” crowd making fun of and agitating for the end of Islamic restrictions on moral behavior? > > And why were the shootings of Medgar Evers, MLK and the church bombing that killed four young black girls held by liberals of the time to be symptomatic of American society of the time, but the assassination of a Christian government Minister in Pakistan is attributable only to the actions of the men who killed him? > > In other words, why was pre-counter-culture American society at fault for the ills that occurred within it, but Islam is not at fault for the ills that occur within it? Excellent analogy. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/62 "2011-03-05T15:59:22Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#): > > I’m reminded that after the bombing of Coptic church in Egypt, thousands of Muslims came out and surrounded the church during the [Coptic’s Xmas services](http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/95/3365/Egypt/Attack-on-Egypt-Copts/Egypts-Muslims-attend-Christian-Coptic-mass,-servi.aspx) and served as human shields. They _risked_ their lives so that others could worship in peace. They made it clear that they’d had enough of these comic book ass-hat theologians with their evil, self-centered, selfish opinions which justified see other people as sub-human, whose opinions are not worthy to listen to. > > I guess life’s more complex then we wish it could be, eh **Magellen01** and **Starving Artist**? But that’s why we learn to grow and rise above our petty, pointless, and bigoted viewpoints. Because we have thirst for knowledge and truth, even when it interferes with our preconceived and misguided notions & beliefs! Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy. If anyone was trying to claim that all Muslims are barbaric throwbacks, you’d have a point. If anyone was trying to claim that Muslims are not capable of kindness, you have a point. So, as it stands, you don’t. I hope your personal thirst for knowledge and truth is slaked, at least a little, by what I posted from Wikipedia. Feel free to adjust your own preconceived and misguided notions & beliefs as you see fit. My gift to you. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/63 "2011-03-05T16:04:11Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Last imprisonment was in the 1920s. In living memory as it were. And this is an interesting point. While it is true that as we look back on humanity collectively, ignorance and barbarism are a part of who we were. But some of us grew and became more civilized. Some groups, isolated in the jungles of Borneo or what have you, have remained much the same. Other groups, like those made up of some Muslims actively and conscientiously reject such a notion and continue with practices that the civilized world has long rejected. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/64 "2011-03-05T16:08:33Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Oh god, what a shock! \*Meven more \*\*\*magellan01 \*\*mracism. Another invaluable contribution. Perhaps you and Monty could get together and write a book, a compilation of your thoughts on the matter. What a tome it would be! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/65 "2011-03-05T16:13:30Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Oh, and so **Magellan** can stop soiling himself, I sincerely hope the people responsible for this crime are caught and brought to justice. And, once duly convicted, I hope they receive the penalty due under the law of Pakistan (hoping that isn’t the death penalty, but presuming it is). Perhaps you might consider including in your “sincere hopes” the Muslims, Christians and other minorities who live in societies where such barbarism is enshrined in law and is part and parcel of society. (See list from Wikipedia supplied earlier.) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/66 "2011-03-05T16:16:49Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Any chance of this thread being moved to The Pit either as a stand-alone thread or joined to the OP’s latest Pit diatribe about Islam thread? Why? If you don’t have anything of substance to contribute, just don’t post—contrary to your participation thus far. If you feel the need to simply piss and not add anything to the actual discussion, the other thread is still ope. Or, of course, you can start your own Pit thread. Hope that helps. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/67 "2011-03-05T16:24:45Z")
So nobody wants to generalize about all Chinese cultures based on China’s abhorrent treatment of Falun Gong members? I think China must have the most draconian religious laws on the planet. Even their imitation Catholic church has to swear that they are loyal to the Party before they are loyal to God. Why do Pakistan’s religious laws reflect that Islam is incompatible with modernity, while China’s obviously are quite compatible with modernity and certainly don’t reflect on Chinese cultures outside of that particular political system? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/68 "2011-03-05T16:40:17Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > So nobody wants to generalize about all Chinese cultures based on China’s abhorrent treatment of Falun Gong members? I think China must have the most draconian religious laws on the planet. Even their imitation Catholic church has to swear that they are loyal to the Party before they are loyal to God. > > Why do Pakistan’s religious laws reflect that Islam is incompatible with modernity, while China’s obviously are quite compatible with modernity and certainly don’t reflect on Chinese cultures outside of that particular political system? Speaking for myself, you may very well be right. But I am not that familiar with the situation in China. perhaps you could start a thread on it. It sounds interesting. I’d read it. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/69 "2011-03-05T16:41:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Perhaps you might consider including in your “sincere hopes” the Muslims, Christians and other minorities who live in societies where such barbarism is enshrined in law and is part and parcel of society. (See list from Wikipedia supplied earlier.) Well, having told you before I am not sure internet message board posturing does anything, and preferring to actually do real life things to address injustice… Anyway, just for you, seeing as making a message board statement will put me at exactly the same spot as you when it comes to contributions against oppression in the world. I think all blasphemy laws should be abolished. I think all religious states should be secularized. In particular, I believe the policy of the right in favoring Pakistan over India has been a misguided one, and resulted in a lot of hardship. The Pakistani government should hunt down these criminals and punish them to the full extent of the law. Unlike you, I don’t expect this to have any result, though. But if it makes you feel better it makes me feel better. Hugs and kisses. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/70 "2011-03-05T16:48:51Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Well, having told you before I am not sure internet message board posturing does anything, and preferring to actually do real life things to address injustice… > > Anyway, just for you, seeing as making a message board statement will put me at exactly the same spot as you when it comes to contributions against oppression in the world. > > I think all blasphemy laws should be abolished. I think all religious states should be secularized. In particular, I believe the policy of the right in favoring Pakistan over India has been a misguided one, and resulted in a lot of hardship. The Pakistani government should hunt down these criminals and punish them to the full extent of the law. > > Unlike you, I don’t expect this to have any result, though. But if it makes you feel better it makes me feel better. Hugs and kisses. Smooch. But a quick question concerning your third paragraph. If you believe all that and want the world you describe, would you agree that the Muslim, both due to its sheer size and the large number of Muslims (even if a minority) that are living with one foot in the seventh century, would you agree that correct THAT problem would offer the greatest good? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/71 "2011-03-05T17:07:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Speaking for myself, you may very well be right. But I am not that familiar with the situation in China. perhaps you could start a thread on it. It sounds interesting. I’d read it. Nice dodge, but you and I both know that the issue at hand is not the specifics of China. Pakistan is not the only country to have blasphemy laws and religious/political violence related to that. Why is it such a big deal with Pakistan/Islam and not with other places? My opinion…religious violence is usually political. Ethnic violence is usually political. Any sort of organized violence is usually at it’s heart about who is in power, and not the window dressing they put on it. I think we all agree that Pakistan’s political situation is about as bad as it gets. But I don’t see how that can reflect on Muslims in, say, Tanzania. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/72 "2011-03-05T17:22:45Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Nice dodge, It wasn’t a dodge. The thread is about the incident cited, blasphemy laws in Pakistan, and the degree to which those laws, along with other barbarism in the Muslim world, indicate that there is some problem with Islam itself, as opposed to a few radical AQ/Taliban types. So, I was very serious. What you describe in China sounds interesting. Start a thread about it. Or about blasphemy laws in general. I’ll be sure to read your OP. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/73 "2011-03-05T23:22:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is perfect. Actually, it is. But not the way you apparently think it is. That’s not a reminder for you that the thread exists. > [@](#): > > You read the thread title, and are aware of the thread title that resides in the Pit, which talks about another barbaric act brought to us by the Muslim world. In that other thread it was clearly explained to you that “the Muslim world” there is not monolithic and “the Muslim world,” the actual governmental authorities who also happen to be Muslims, are taking action against the individuals who committed that act of barbarism. Oddly enough, you were already aware of that fact about “the Muslim world” but stil chose to rant against “the Muslim world” while handwaving away acts of barbarism commited by Christians. > [@](#): > > Yet, you assume that I, the OP of both am unaware of the other thread. Or that they are related. No. I assume nothing. I merely reminded you of your own action, not the thread. > [@](#): > > Hmmm. Only if I had, maybe, made the thread titles so similar as to intentionally flag their being related. Well, you could’ve just appended this rant of yours to that rant of yours. There’s beauty in efficiency, so I hear. Also, it would’ve made it more efficient for those responding to you here so they could do so in the appropriate manner without running afoul of board rules. One could easily come to the conclusion that’s the very reason you put this thread here instead of The Pit. > [@](#): > > Oh wait, I did just that. But thanks for offering what you could. I can’t tell you how valuable a contribution it is. I was under no illusion as to what you can or can’t tell me on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/74 "2011-03-06T01:45:13Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > In that other thread it was clearly explained to you that “the Muslim world” there is not monolithic and “the Muslim world,” the actual governmental authorities who also happen to be Muslims, are taking action against the individuals who committed that act of barbarism. Oddly enough, you were already aware of that fact about “the Muslim world” but stil chose to rant against “the Muslim world” while handwaving away acts of barbarism commited by Christians. You need to go back to that thread and read my responses to those points. Maybe they’ll sink in on a second reading. > [@Monty](#): > > No. I assume nothing. I merely reminded you of your own action, not the thread. My action? My action in _that thread_, right. But what you did was foolish. You must know that I am aware of that thread. You must know that not only was I aware of it, but that I flagged that this one and that one had some relation. Yet, you still felt some need to point that out. Odd. But, hey, whatever floats your boat. > [@Monty](#): > > Well, you could’ve just appended this rant of yours to that rant of yours. There’s beauty in efficiency, so I hear. Also, it would’ve made it more efficient for those responding to you here so they could do so in the appropriate manner without running afoul of board rules. One could easily come to the conclusion that’s the very reason you put this thread here instead of The Pit. And here we come to the crux of it. You really have nothing of substance to contribute to the discussion, so you’d like to just piss. Well, that’s fine, feel free to post in that other thread. Or start your very own Pit thread. And yes, the pissing is the very reason I posted this in GD, because I like to discuss the issue. Now I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that there is no one standing beside you holding a gun to your head forcing you to click on this thread. If I’m right, go to the Pit and let your freak flag fly. > [@Monty](#): > > I was under no illusion as to what you can or can’t tell me on the subject. Oh, you’re SO wrong about that, but you believe what you’d like and go piss in the Pit. Don’t worry, I’ll come visit. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/75 "2011-03-06T02:25:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Smooch. But a quick question concerning your third paragraph. If you believe all that and want the world you describe, would you agree that the Muslim, both due to its sheer size and the large number of Muslims (even if a minority) that are living with one foot in the seventh century, would you agree that correct THAT problem would offer the greatest good? Any chance of writing this in English? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/76 "2011-03-06T17:23:55Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Excellent analogy. But, as I understand it, what you are dismayed about is not that people are not condemning Pakistan society, but that they are not condemning Islam and/or Muslims? On that basis, a more apt analogy would be to look at whether liberals at the time looked at American society and decided to blame white men, in general, for all of those ills. That, inherently, to be a white man was to have higher propensity for causing such ills? I’ve no doubt that some did (and do), but by and large, that wasn’t the reaction, because it is foolish. Those racist and sexist people (and those who exist today) most certainly do what they do and think what they think because of their views of their race, their views of their gender; but that doesn’t mean that they are unique, or linked inexoriably to those factors. As to the other points of the analogy - might I be so bold to suggest that perhaps Starving Artist is not a regular on feminist or liberal sites? All of the things that he mentions are most certainly a bone of massive contention. I would suggest that there are two reasons why he hasn’t seen what he would like to see; that by and large he doesn’t particularly seek them out, so when news of feminist or liberal opinion come to his notice it’s because they’re of some matter of debate, like this one here; and two, relatedly, that by and large we don’t see much castigation and debate on such topics here in comparison because by and large there isn’t a huge amount to debate. What is being asked for? A GD thread in which the first topic was “Women should not be stoned to death.” followed by pages and pages in which posters stand up for the right to stone women? **magellan** , I am happy to say that without you even mentioning the subject I am certain there are plenty of foul acts that you are against. But if I were to examine your posting history, I’m equally certain that I would be able to find some foul acts that you have not castigated to the extent they deserve. Does that mean you are therefore in favour of those things? Of course not. It just means there’s not a huge amount of point in arguing something on which most people already agree. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/77 "2011-03-06T18:58:14Z")
OK, new rule: **magellan01** must start at least one interesting, thought provoking thread before he’s allowed a new round of mindless Islam bashing. Seriously, dude. Get a hobby. I’d avise ham radio, they tend to welcome obsessive monomaniacs. I’d have said chess since Lord knows chess men can be scarily dogmatic as well, but of course it’s an Arab game so that’s a non starter. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/78 "2011-03-07T10:04:33Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Any chance of writing this in English? English is out. [Incomprehensible shouting](http://www.theonion.com/video/incomprehensible-shouting-named-official-us-langua,19417/) is in. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/79 "2011-03-07T16:11:01Z")
I’m not sure this form of faulty reasoning has a name, so I’ll call it the absurdity of discrete entity, the presumption of identity where none truly exists. Any idiot knows that Americans are not all the same in any meaningful way, we are too diverse. The self-same idiot will also realize that Christians are not all the same. Catholics are not Protestants, except for Church of England Protestants, who are Catholic Protestants. Or something. Methodists are not Baptists. (The voice of my grandmother from beyond urges me to emphasize that point, Methodists are not simply Baptists with shoes, there are distinct and meaningful doctrinal differences, and I used to know what they were…) Jews are also not an identity, there are very distinct internal differences, Orthodox, Conservative and Reform, not to mention Jews who are Zionist and Jews who regard Zionism as an usurpation of God’s will. The larger the grouping, the more likely that such an internal contradiction renders any unity an absurdity. There is no such discrete entity as “Muslims”. The Zen-like mysticism of the Sufi tradition is a beautiful thing. Let me offer my favorite Sufi aphorism: “God respects me when I work, but He loves me when I sing.” Preach it, brother. Compare this to the utterly Calvinistic uptightness of the Wahabbist tradition. There is no such thing as “Muslim”, not as a discrete entity, but only as a broad generalization that breaks down the very instant it is examined. So, really, the old saying is true: there are two kinds of people in the world, people who believe that there are two kinds of people, and people who know better. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403/80 "2011-03-07T19:55:49Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And you repeated the loony claim that a lack of DDT was causing deaths. If I may interject… My posting history should make it clear that my attitude toward \*\*Starving Artist \*\*can be fairly well summed up by the word “contempt.” However, I think it’s clear that [in his post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13534794&postcount=47), he wasn’t claiming that a lack of DDT is killing people _now_; but rather, riffing off a joke that \*\*elucidator \*\*made, implying that a lack of DDT \*would \*be killing people \*if \*we were attacked by _ **giant bugs from outer space** _. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousness-or-more-radical-muslim-marvelousness/573403.md?page=5)