# More Muslim Marvelousnous **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243 "2011-02-05T03:19:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/181 "2011-02-06T19:21:54Z")
Turns out, upon checking, that **Casdave** was also on record as opposing the savagery of the Iraq War, just as I was. So he merits a pass on that, and an apology. Which is herein offered. There are, however, several of you here who have not such a record of consistency. You, and you know who you are, are still firmly invited to go pound burdocks. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/182 "2011-02-06T19:27:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As God is my witness, I formally, and unconditionally, condemn all religions that encourage witch burning. > > I know I’m going to be the subject of all kinds of criticisms around here for taking that stand, but that’s the way I feel, and I don’t care what anyone thinks about me because of it!! Bigot! Troll! Umm…Liar!? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/183 "2011-02-06T19:30:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No need to go that far in defense of the indefensible. The cite has already been given earlier in this thread regarding Muslims, but surely you’re not going to claim that ~50% of Christians want to kill gays. Are you? 50% of Muslims don’t want to kill apostates either. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/184 "2011-02-06T19:33:19Z")
**Red** , if he shows up, I’m blaming you! That carries the special Yurpeen sentence of six hours on non-stop NASCAR. ---
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/185 "2011-02-06T19:35:58Z")
> [@Diogenes The Cynic](#): > > No it doesn’t. Not really. Some Christians try to interpret it that way, but plenty still prefer to hold onto intolerant passages which appeal to them (especially the gay bashing bit inj Leviticus) The point is that if Christians _don’t_ want to hold onto those intolerant passages, the mental gymnastics aren’t particularly laborious. On the subject of homosexuality, the Qur’an states: _“What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk.”_ Qur’an 26:165 And by way of elaboration, the hadith states: \*“When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes.” “Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to.”\* Since Muslims believe that the Qur’an is literally the word of God, and perfect in every syllable, they have to engage in more doublethink than the average Christian to ignore those edicts. Now, no doubt a great many of them do precisely that, and this is laudable. However, there is absolutely no question that those who _don’t_ ignore them are on firmer ground theologically. > [@Diogenes The Cynic](#): > > The fact remains that Christians are just as willing and able to commit atrocities in the name of their religion as anybody else. Islam isn’t special in that regard, and not for nothing, but most of the really intolerant parts of Islamic law are based directly on Mosaic law. The Pew surveys quoted earlier in this thread show that this is clearly not the case. Muslims have been scientifically polled, with an error margin of 2-4 percent, on the question of whether or not apostates should be killed, and a terrifying number of them think that they should. And after all, why _wouldn’t_ they think that? The Qur’an and the Hadith are very clear on this point, and symbolic interpretations of Islamic scripture are, by definition, virtually impossible. Besides, even if we were to allow, purely for the sake of argument, that Christians were as given to literalism as Muslims, I can still think of one clear exception to your argument right off the bat: Suicide bombing. Let’s digress for a very brief moment and look at my favourite religion, Jainism. Beliefs have consequences and the differences between faiths are as relevant as they are unmistakeable. There is a reason, after all, why world government’s aren’t burning lean tissue worrying about Jain suicide bombers. The founding principle of Jainism is _utter_ non-violence. The more deranged you become as a Jain, the less likely you are to become a suicide bomber. Similarly in Christianity, while there is a long tradition of martyrdom, there is nothing in the Bible which could lead one to believe that dying on a battlefield in defence of your religion represented the ultimate sacrament. The same is not true of Islam. The Qur’an and the hadith both praise martyrdom as the highest form of sacrifice, earning the perpetrator a prized place in paradise. Now, I’m well aware that the Tamils were committing suicide attacks before the Islamists. As far as I’m aware, they’re not even a religious group. I know full well that Muslims don’t have a monopoly on suicide bombings. However, if your sacred texts clearly state that violent martyrdom will get you into Allah’s good books then it’s obviously easier to do just that the more militant a Muslim you are. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/186 "2011-02-06T19:40:28Z")
The Koran doesn’t say that “violent martyrdom” will get you into heaven. You are misinformned. On the contrary, most Muslims will tell you that suicide bombers go to Hell. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/187 "2011-02-06T19:41:03Z")
I actually know a couple of Jains, and they are representative of a fine and noble religious tradition. Much like Sufi Islam. And they would be appalled to be used by you in support of hatred and bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/188 "2011-02-06T19:42:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > There are, however, several of you here who have not such a record of consistency. You, and you know who you are, are still firmly invited to go pound burdocks. For the record, although I wasn’t a member at the time, I was very strongly opposed to the Iraq invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/189 "2011-02-06T19:50:10Z")
I’m calling bullshit on the Pew poll, by the way, the high numbers break down along cultural lines, not really religious. Muslims in the western world don’t think that way. Plus, if you did a worldwide poll of Christians, I have no doubt you would find similar numbers. Not that numbers are the point anyway. Secularists civilized Christianity in the western world. Western Muslims tend to moderate as well. Religious zealotry is not caused by the specific religion, but by external conditions. The Christian Bible has some of the most vile and repulsive passages you will find in any religious literature, but in conditions of freedom and democracy (which were brought into the world by secularists) Christians have no problem ignoring that stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/190 "2011-02-06T19:53:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The Koran doesn’t say that “violent martyrdom” will get you into heaven. You are misinformned. On the contrary, most Muslims will tell you that suicide bombers go to Hell. _“Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).”_ Qur’an 4:74. _“Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.”_ - Qur’an 9:111. > [@elucidator](#): > > I actually know a couple of Jains, and they are representative of a fine and noble religious tradition. Much like Sufi Islam. Sufi’s have been persecuted by orthodox Muslims since time immemorial. Even today, in Iran, Sufi’s get lashed. If Sufism were the predominant strain of Islamic thought, the world would be a much safer place. It isn’t, and it isn’t. > [@elucidator](#): > > And they would be appalled to be used by you in support of hatred and bigotry. I think it’s safe to say that they would be more appalled by religious violence. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/191 "2011-02-06T20:00:14Z")
> [@Cort](#): > > _“Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).”_ Qur’an 4:74. > > _“Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.”_ - Qur’an 9:111. Nothing in there about suicide bombing or killing civilians. The vast majority of Muslims condemn those things. The passages you’re quoting have to do with defending Muslims against physical threats. Those who use this kind of passage to justify suicide bombings of civilians are a minority of zealots who are twisting the text. Why don’t you actually ask a Muslim what happens to suicide bombers. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/192 "2011-02-06T20:00:39Z")
Well, shit, **Cort** , if you give a pass to the Sufis (as well you should), then you finally get down to hating violent assholes. Why not just hate violent assholes and forget about their religious persuasions? What difference does it make what lame-ass justifications they use? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/193 "2011-02-06T20:08:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The Koran doesn’t say that “violent martyrdom” will get you into heaven. You are misinformned. On the contrary, most Muslims will tell you that suicide bombers go to Hell. The second sentence may or may not be right since it depends on who you ask, but the first sentence is wrong. According to Islamic tradition one who dies a Shaheed(martyr) is immediately whisked away to paradise while everyone else has to wait around in the ground till Judgement Day where they’re then interviewed by some angels to determine if they can get into heaven or not. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/194 "2011-02-06T20:12:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > 50% of Muslims don’t want to kill apostates either. This has got to be a joke. Or perhaps we should start giving out an award to people for not committing murder? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/195 "2011-02-06T20:14:15Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The second sentence may or may not be right since it depends on who you ask, but the first sentence is wrong. > > According to Islamic tradition one who dies a Shaheed(martyr) is immediately whisked away to paradise while everyone else has to wait around in the ground till Judgement Day where they’re then interviewed by some angels to determine if they can get into heaven or not. I am not contesting that Islam tradition holds that martyrs go to Heaven, my contention is that the majority of Islamic tradition does not consider those who kill innocents to be martyrs. Most Muslims do not think that suicide bombers are martyrs, they think they’re criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/196 "2011-02-06T20:17:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This has got to be a joke. Or perhaps we should start giving out an award to people for not committing murder? I didn’t mean it that way. I was saying that I don’t believe the number that 50% DO want to kill apostates. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/197 "2011-02-06T20:19:24Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Which I guess is ok, since **casdave** isn’t the OP, and the OP is a dishonest debater and generally a piece of shit… Yeah, yeah, I’m a piece of shit and you’re a piece of shit. But from where does this “dishonest debater” notion come from? I’ve been called lots and lots of things on these boards, all the usual ad hominems—and more. But I don’t recall this accusation. Please, do tell, what have i been dishonest about? Somehow I get the feeling that the dishonest piece of shit is you. And your quote above is my cite. However, I do agree with you that **casdave** has done a stellar job here, as has **Cort** and **NCDane**. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/198 "2011-02-06T20:21:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t mean it that way. I was saying that I don’t believe the number that 50% DO want to kill apostates. Good. Whew. Do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy or fairness of the poll? Do you not trust Pew? Something else? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/199 "2011-02-06T20:31:22Z")
I think it’s skewed by high numbers in culturally repressed regions. ---
**Author:** ![NCDane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecccb3/32.png) [@NCDane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NCDane)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/200 "2011-02-06T20:32:04Z")
There is more nonsense here than I care to address line-by-line. I will comment on a few of the highlights. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Are you saying you honestly don’t think the Bible condemns adultery or requires the death penalty for adultery? > > Reread Deuteronomy 22:22, Leviticus 20:10, and Proverbs 6:32. > > Now, perhaps you’re going to argue that because of Jesus you can ignore all the laws of the Old Testament, but that certainly wasn’t what Jesus felt. As he said in Matthew 5:17-18… The key word is “fulfill”. This was not interpreted to mean “obey literally and word-for word” either by Christ (cf "“go and sin no more”) or by his successors, who dispensed with OT dietary law (1 Corinthians 10:25–28) and the necessity of circumcision (Galatians 2), among other things. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Now, earlier you insisted that Christianity doesn’t argue that adultery should be a capitol offense because of John 8:1-11, but you seem to have misunderstood the point of that passage. “The Pharisees and the teachers of the law” had brought this adulteress before Jesus and were challenging him to say she had to be stoned. Jesus then came up with a reason not to with the famous phrase “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. > > Now, the reason Jesus did this was because as the passage tells us, “they were using this question as a trap” and Jesus refused to do so because if he’d condemned her to be stoned to death he would have been a hypocrite because at that time the people in charge were regularly breaking the law. > > As he said "“Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ‘The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.'”(Matthew 23:1-3). The rhetorical gymnastics above are compromised by the literal and unyielding interpretation of “fulfill”, to which you commited yourself in the first paragraph of your reply. Furthermore, the premise that the criminal should be pardoned because of the moral imperfection of the judge is plainly absurd. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Had Jesus actually said it was wrong to punish people for adultery then Christians would not have over the centuries executed countless numbers of people for adultery… Citation, please, and I believe adultery was seldom if ever a capital crime in the West outside the immediate family of Henry VIII of England. I am not going to research every statute ca. 300-1700CE, but I did find this ruling on sex crimes issued by Pope Leo III in the 8th century CE: > **[Internet History Sourcebooks: Medieval Sourcebook](https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/ecloga1.asp)** (from link): > [@](#): > > 1. A married man who commits adultery shall by way of’ correction be flogged with twelve lashes; and whether rich or poor he shall pay a fine. > > 2. An unmarried man who commits fornication shall be flogged with six lashes. > > 3. A person who has carnal knowledge of a nun shall, upon the footing that he is debauching the Church of God, have his nose slit, because he committed wicked adultery with her who belonged to the Church; and she on her side must take heed lest similar punishment be reserved to her. > > 4. Anyone who, intending to take in marriage a woman who is his goddaughter in Salvation-bringing baptism, has carnal knowledge of her without marrying her, and being found guilty’ of’ the offence shall, after being exiled, be condemned to the same punishment meted out for other adultery, that is to say, both the man and the woman shall have their noses slit. > > 5. The husband who is cognizant of, and condones, his wife’s adultery shall be flogged and exiled, and the adulterer and the adulteress shall have their noses slit. > > 6. Persons committing incest, parents and children, children and parents, brothers and sisters, shall be punished capitally with the sword. Those in other relationships who corrupt one another carnally, that is father and daughter-in-law, son and stepmother, father-in-law and daughter-in-law, brother and his brother’s wife, uncle and niece, nephew and aunt, shall have their noses slit. And likewise he who has carnal knowledge with two sisters and even cousins. > > 7. If a woman is carnally known and, becoming pregnant, tries to produce a miscarriage [abortion], she shall be whipped and exiled. > > 8. Those who are guilty whether actively or passively of committing unnatural offences shall be capitally punished with the sword. If he who commits the offence passively, is found to be under twelve years old, he shall be pardoned on the ground of youthful ignorance of the offence committed. > > 9. Those guilty of “abominable crime” [homosexuality?] shall be emasculated. So: nose slitting, lashes (12), fines and exiles by decree of the Pope himself. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Christians in Europe didn’t stop executing people for adultery because they suddenly found some passage in the Bible they hadn’t noticed but because secular philosophies defanged them. Addressed. I believe you are guilty of deliberate falsifaction of the historical record, or to put it more crudely, you are guilty of making shit up. In so doing you emulate the worst of the totalitarian ideologies of the past 100 years. You are an intellectual criminal for whom the truth will serve only if it suits you, and when the truth does not suit you then a lie is just as good. I will try not bother with you again, although I cannot promise I will not provoke me into speaking by some future enormity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=11)