# More Muslim Marvelousnous **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243 "2011-02-05T03:19:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/221 "2011-02-06T23:46:42Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Suicide bombing is political. Nobody blows up a Guatemalan grocery store or a Gabonese border crossing because they just hate Christians that much. Nobody attacks Ethiopian or Indian Jews. When the Uighers fight against the Han Chinse, it’s not because they are a bunch of Atheists. > > Suicide bombs are done by political groups (which use religion to sell their shtick) for political reasons. Political violence is an old story that happens around the world, and so it’s not all that surprising that there is Islamic political violence as well. If this is the case then where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered under a persecution far more savage, draconian, and cynical than the Palestinians have, yet to the best of my knowledge no Tibetan Buddhist has ever launched a suicide attack against any Chinese target. For that matter, where are the Palestinian Christian suicide bombers? Well, they’re nowhere. They simply don’t exist. So what is the difference that makes the difference? The difference lies in the specific tenets of Islam Of course, that’s not to say that Muslims have a monopoly on suicide attacks. The Tamils use suicide bombers too, and for mostly political reason as you say. Moreover, Buddhism was used to justify Kamikaze attacks during WWII. But this fact concedes absolutely nothing to apologists for Islam. As a Buddhist, one has to work extremely hard to justify such barbarism. One need not work nearly so hard as a Muslim, thanks to the reams, and reams, and reams of scriptural exhortations to martyrdom and denunciations of the Infidel that we find in the Qur’an and the Hadith. The truth that we must finally confront is that there is absolutely nothing on earth that explains the actions of Islamic terrorists as simply and as completely as the tenets of Islam itself. Moreover, when you deny or downplay the role Islamic doctrine plays in inspiring suicide attacks, you’re contradicting the very people who choose to carry them out. Consider Osama Bin Laden’s post 9/11 videos. He pays little (if any) attention to political grievances, and he mentions them only in passing, but he spend a great deal of time talking about American “sinfulness”, the presence of American troops in Islamic holy lands and ruminating on the pleasures of Paradise. I guess what you’re saying isn’t entirely untrue. Some suicide attacks are undeniably motivated, in whole or in part, by political grievances. On the other hand, a great many are undeniably motivated by purely _theological_ grievances (that is to say, imaginary ones) and the promise of prime real estate in Allah’s garden is an undeniable inducement for those who really believe in it. ---
**Author:** ![AshenLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@AshenLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AshenLady)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/222 "2011-02-06T23:52:26Z")
Kamikaze was during WWII, a fairly large world-wide debacle and they did it to try to beat the allies, under orders from their commanders. Islamic suicide bombers do this as a matter of course, in order to spread their views, albeit post-humously. and with all martyrdom that comes with it and the 72 virgins. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/223 "2011-02-07T00:04:48Z")
I’d like to break here for a moment and offer some congratulations to \*\*magellan01 \*\*for making it to numbers one and two on the Pit thread chart, at this moment at least. It’s not an easy thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/224 "2011-02-07T00:08:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What do you mean I don’t have a cite? > > I linked you to one. > > Do you want another? > > Ok, here is an interview with Arab Media scholars Adel Iskandar and Mohammed El-nawawy where they both freely talk about how Al Jazeera refers to Palestinian suicide bombers as “martyrs”. > > [http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/resources/transcripts/134.html](http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/resources/transcripts/134.html) > Please don’t ever accuse me of lying again unless you have evidence to support such a contention. > > Moreover, if you’re going to accuse Arab-American professors who’ve devoted years of their lives to studying the Arab language media of lying then you need to present evidence of that. > > Perhaps, I’m wrong and you speak Arabic and regularly watch Al Jazeera, but I doubt it. Still no cites, I see. Just links to unsupported claims by Islamophobic douchebags. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/225 "2011-02-07T00:51:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Still no cites, I see. Just links to unsupported claims by Islamophobic douchebags. You think that Adel Iskandar and Mohammed El-nawawy are “Islamophobic douchebags”? Umm… you do realize that they are both Muslims don’t you. Anyway thank you for making it clear that you are extremely stupid and aggressively in denial of reality or joking. If you are not joking then I recommend doing something about your extreme ignorance regarding Islam and the Middle East. There are things that can help you with that. They are called books. Some of them can be intimidating to people, but don’t let them scare you. They’re terrific for learning information and great to consume on planes. If of course you were joking, I retract all that but would say next time simply admit you were wrong about Al Jazeera. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/226 "2011-02-07T01:32:34Z")
> [@AshenLady](#): > > Hey guys, if Islam is so wonderful, why aren’t there any mass conversions and, in fact, why not MOVE to the middle east where you can be with all of your brethren. Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Bangladesh moved? I missed that memo. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/227 "2011-02-07T01:37:30Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Bangladesh moved? I missed that memo. Yeah, they are hanging out with huge chunks of Africa and Central Asia in a Dubai high rise. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/228 "2011-02-07T02:15:55Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Nope. Not even close. Subsequent to your post I explained why I did that. It makes perfect sense. I don’t whitewash what is in the Old Testament—there’s stuff in it just as barbaric as there is in the Quran—I just point out that it’s not relevant in today’s world. You might want to read my response to **Ibn Warraq.** Now you can disagree with the degree to which it is relevant, but to characterize it as dishonest shows you have no grasp of the meaning of the word. What IS dishonest is you characterizing my focusing on the New Testamant as dishonest. It only makes perfect sense to you because it supports your argument. That doesn’t make it honest. It’s a distortion of Christian beliefs to support your position; in other words, it is dishonest. > [@](#): > > Boo-hoo. Big fucking deal, you don’t agree with me. I don’t agree with you. It also seems that you’re more interested in the messenger than the message. Not a great trait in debates. And just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean you’re dishonest. It means I think you’re wrong. I don’t care if you think I agree with you or not, I added that bit to clarify my position for the non- bigots possibly reading. > [@](#): > > This is pure comedy gold. What a hypocrite you are! You find some problem with me starting a thread on yet the latest piece of Muslim barbarism, and call that “stupid”, then you come in here and rail to the high heavens about the evils of all religions. THAT comes from a nasty place. And you’re just like the worst of the evangelical atheists: you’re a fundie from the other end of the spectrum. This is so dumb I am not going to respond. > [@](#): > > So, now that the one piece of sup[posed substantiation you offered regarding me being dishonest has fallen, I’m sure you’ll be eager to retract that statement. Right? Saying you are right doesn’t make it so. I will not apologize. I will also not respond to anything else you have to say. I’ve made my opinion of you and your argument perfectly clear, and I stand by it without reservation. We have nothing more to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/229 "2011-02-07T04:15:48Z")
And even if you guys were right, so what? What would we do, even if we were in general agreement that everything Muslim was somehow degraded. What then? Keeping in mind that so many of us are a bit squeamish about that whole genocide thing. Forced conversions? To which, Christianity or Consumerism? Maybe let the contract out to the highest bidder. Send around teams of fresh scrubbed kids on bicycles, make them all Mormons? Scientologists? Would that be some kind of improvement? Same bad people, change their church, makes them better? Seems unlikely, and might well be met with surly refusal. Restrict immigration? Punishes the guilty along with the innocent. Besides, a person who wants to move to a more “secular” place its more likely “our kind”. You know, civilized, and all. And, as well, thoroughly insulting any of the rest of them who don’t hate us yet. So, whats the plan? How do we go about dealing with these…these, ah…well, are they still “people” in your eyes, or a variety of clever but vicious primate? After all, they’re not really much like us, are they? Don’t value human life, like we do. We civilized people. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/230 "2011-02-07T04:27:15Z")
Naybobs? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/231 "2011-02-07T04:34:27Z")
Seventy-two virgins? The entire Baylor freshman class? ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/232 "2011-02-07T05:03:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And even if you guys were right, so what? What would we do, even if we were in general agreement that everything Muslim was somehow degraded. What then? Keeping in mind that so many of us are a bit squeamish about that whole genocide thing. > > Forced conversions? To which, Christianity or Consumerism? Maybe let the contract out to the highest bidder. Send around teams of fresh scrubbed kids on bicycles, make them all Mormons? Scientologists? Would that be some kind of improvement? Same bad people, change their church, makes them better? Seems unlikely, and might well be met with surly refusal. > > Restrict immigration? Punishes the guilty along with the innocent. Besides, a person who wants to move to a more “secular” place its more likely “our kind”. You know, civilized, and all. > > And, as well, thoroughly insulting any of the rest of them who don’t hate us yet. > > So, whats the plan? How do we go about dealing with these…these, ah…well, are they still “people” in your eyes, or a variety of clever but vicious primate? After all, they’re not really much like us, are they? Don’t value human life, like we do. We civilized people. Talk about poisoning the well… :rolleyes: I don’t know what we could do. Probably nothing, honestly. I think Islamic society needs an Enlightenment, and i don’t think it’s something you can force. I don’t think that makes discussing the problems with that part of the world, and to what degree their religiosity informs them, an off topic discussion though. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/233 "2011-02-07T05:20:15Z")
But what accounts for it? Why should the Koran have such a powerful force over Muslims that the Bible does not have for Christians? Or the Torah for Jews, the sutras for Buddhists. and so on and so forth. What metaphysical power is contained in the work that does not appear in the others? [Church Lady] Could it be…Satan?! [/CL] Or worse still, God? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/234 "2011-02-07T05:29:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And even if you guys were right, so what? What would we do, even if we were in general agreement that everything Muslim was somehow degraded. What then? Keeping in mind that so many of us are a bit squeamish about that whole genocide thing. I already asked this in post 119. Two replied, in posts 122 and 147, the latter of which says: > [@NCDane](#): > > It’s looking more and more like the pre-WW2 colonial regimes, imperfect though they were, were the best government most > Muslims ever had. > > In an imaginary perfect world we would be able to disarm them > without great loss of life or treasure. Then we would remove their > right to self-government and rule over them by decree until the > worst of their awful religion could be exorcised, even if were to > take centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/235 "2011-02-07T05:29:58Z")
> [@AshenLady](#): > > Hey guys, if Islam is so wonderful, why aren’t there any mass conversions and, in fact, why not MOVE to the middle east where you can be with all of your brethren. > > You don’t want to get dirtied by associating with nasty Judeo/Christians and athiests and agnostics, now do any of you politically correct naybobs, eh? Islam does have mass conversions. I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Not that it means Islam is “wonderful,” and nobody has said that it is. It’s just no worse than Christianity, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/236 "2011-02-07T05:31:22Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > As long as you’re online, **magellan01** , I wonder if I could draw your attention to my post [#125](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13434031&postcount=125), and get some feedback. I recognize that it may have gotten buried in the mad rush to continue the debate, so I’m not accusing you of ignoring it, but I did intend for it to be taken seriously. Sorry. I did miss it. As is probably evident by now, the atrocity occurred in central Bangladesh. As far as my goal with the thread, I was outraged, appalled, disgusted. I also thought people should be reminded of the degree to which barbarism is still associated with the religion—today in 2011. But mainly I was using the Pit for what it’s here for. My heart goes out to that young girl. No one stood up for her. So, so sad. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/237 "2011-02-07T05:33:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Islam does have mass conversions. I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. > > Not that it means Islam is “wonderful,” and nobody has said that it is. It’s just no worse than Christianity, that’s all. What’s your metric? In the past 20 years how many innocent people have been blown up in the name of Christianity? Beheaded? Been the victims of honor killings? Stoned to death? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/238 "2011-02-07T05:42:20Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > It only makes perfect sense to you because it supports your argument. That doesn’t make it honest. It’s a distortion of Christian beliefs to support your position; in other words, it is dishonest. Wow. I framed things in a way that supports my argument?!!! Amazing! I also notice on you didn’t comment on the reasoning I pointed you to. I’m not surprised. > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > I don’t care if you think I agree with you or not, I added that bit to clarify my position for the non- bigots possibly reading. You misread, toots. I don’t give a shit if you agree with me or not. But it must irk you that you do agree with me on much of this. I love it! > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > This is so dumb I am not going to respond. Again, not surprised you’d take that route. > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Saying you are right doesn’t make it so. I will not apologize. Right or wrong about the topic of the thread, I am right about dispelling your claim of dishonesty. And that makes you not only wrong and dishonest, but dishonorable, as well. > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > I will also not respond to anything else you have to say. I’ve made my opinion of you and your argument perfectly clear, and I stand by it without reservation. We have nothing more to discuss. Best news I’ve heard all day. See ya, toots. You dishonorable piece of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/239 "2011-02-07T05:43:17Z")
Christians have cruise missiles. They kill by the thousands. You seem to have forgotten the genocide of Muslims by Christians in Bosnia, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/240 "2011-02-07T06:06:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Christians have cruise missiles. They kill by the thousands. > > You seem to have forgotten the genocide of Muslims by Christians in Bosnia, by the way. I don’t think when Paul Wolflowitz and Richard Perle were planning the invasion of Iraq they were doing so “in the name Christianity”. Granted, since you believe that Muslim academics who disprove your beliefs about Al Jazeera are “Islamophobic douchebags” you clearly aren’t a big believer in reality-based thinking. Now, if you’re in such denial of reality that you think you’re a better authority on Al Jazeera that you think you know it better than Muslim academics who’ve studied it, it’s possible you’re so delusional that you think Perle and Co. are motivated by Christianity. Anyway, I recommend leaving the defense of Islam to those of us who are reality-based thinkers who don’t live in fantasy worlds. We’re a bit better suited to it than you are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=13)