# More Muslim Marvelousnous **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243 "2011-02-05T03:19:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/301 "2011-02-08T20:43:42Z")
> [@AshenLady](#): > > C’mon man, it’s in black and white! Ahh, the Ayatollah Khomeini, known and revered throughout the Muslim world as a moderate secular leader :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![AshenLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@AshenLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AshenLady)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/302 "2011-02-08T21:21:28Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Ahh, the Ayatollah Khomeini, known and revered throughout the Muslim world as a moderate secular leader :rolleyes: I can assure you, that he thinks he is a perfectly reasonable Muslim leader of a perfectly wonderful Islamic state. There are loads of Muslims who would agree with him…what about it? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/303 "2011-02-08T21:37:40Z")
> [@AshenLady](#): > > I can assure you, that he thinks he is a perfectly reasonable Muslim leader of a perfectly wonderful Islamic state. You do know he’s dead, don’t you? I mean, I’d assume you do, but honestly, you might think he is jamming with Elvis and Buddy Holly somewhere in the Cayman Islands at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![AshenLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@AshenLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AshenLady)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/304 "2011-02-08T22:10:26Z")
> [@villa](#): > > You do know he’s dead, don’t you? I mean, I’d assume you do, but honestly, you might think he is jamming with Elvis and Buddy Holly somewhere in the Cayman Islands at the moment. Thought…he was…yeah, he’s up there with Elvis and Boddy Holly and Hendrix and Morrison. ---
**Author:** ![NCDane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecccb3/32.png) [@NCDane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NCDane)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/305 "2011-02-08T22:27:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK, why does the percentage of Muslims in favor of capital punishment for apostasy or adultery fluctuate so much my country? Here is an explanation I gave in another thread for Turkey. [QUOTE=NCDane] In my opinion Turkey’s low numbers are most likely the result of its post WW1 revolution. The revolution removed Islam from a position of authority even to the extent of abolishing the Caliphate, an institution well over 1000 years old. Politics and education were rigorously secularized, and even Muslim dress such as the fez were discouraged or banned. While similar impositions had been made by European colonial powers throughout their empires, the Turkish case was critically different in that revolution was imposed from within, and under the leadership of the incomparable Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, a military and political genius of the highest order. Ataturk’s ability and popularity so completely transcended all others that he was never seriously challenged to the end of his life in 1938. Not only that but he left his partisans strong enough to safeguard his legacy. Unfortunately, signs of brittleness have developed in that legacy in the last 10-20 years, speaking of poll results. If every majority Muslim state had had an Ataturk to lead them ca. 1920-1938 then not only might the poll numbers under review in this thread be much lower, but Islam might not be the threat to the international order which it undoubtedly is today. The reason would lie not in various nebulous “cultural” factors, but in effective separation of religion and state. Alas, such leaders as Ataturk are all too rare. [/QUOTE] > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > IF the percentage of muslims in favor of capital punishment is a proxy for radicaliztion, as you seem to imply, you might conclude that the Jordanese Muslims are more radical than the Lebanese Muslims. A positive reply to the poll questions does signify radical religious fundamentalism, yes. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > To the extent we are using radical Islam as a proxy for terrorism, Islamic fundamentalism doesn’t seem to correlate perfectly with terrorism (Doesn’t Lebanon have more terrorists than Jordan?). Although religious radicalization does not necessarily mean support for suicide bombing and other forms of terrorism, I do think most terrorist recruits come from the most religiously radical segment of Muslim society. Since the terrorists operate in secrecy there is no way of finding out for sure in most cases, Taliban/AQ in Afghnaistan being a noteable exception. Now, if it should prove that Muslim moderates are providing as much support for terrorism as the radicals then that makes Muslim threat worse, not better. I am not sure that Lebanon does have more terrorists than Jordan. The Wiki article on “suicide bombing” lists none there since the early 1980s. I would be very suprised if Jordanian radicals have not been at work since 2003 across the porous border in Iraq. As for the situation within Jordan itself, although the Jordanian royal house has never produced anything like an Ataturk, it may be that it commands some kind of special reverence which protects the country from its own radicals. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Are some middle eastern countries fucked up? Sure, but they would be fucked up with or without Islam. The 50% and 30% positive responses in Nigeria and Indonesia are not exactly grounds for rejoicing. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/306 "2011-02-09T18:10:38Z")
> [@AshenLady](#): > > I don’t think so…it’s precisely citing the Quran. There are things in the Old Testament which, in this day and age aren’t exactly real nice. > > What gives you the right to act as though the books of Islam are perfect and don’t have embarrassing passages? I thought the point you were making was that this sort of crap was something unique to Islam. If your point is that Islam ALSO has passages in its religious texts that don’t read well in the modern world, then sure. I happen to be Christian myself and I gotta tell you, there isn’t a lot of love for any type of religion on this site so I don’t think anyone is defending islam on the basis of its religious beliefs so much as defending Islam against racist bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/307 "2011-02-09T18:16:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Huh? So if the number is less than 50 all is well with Islam? Please. The point is that some Muslims are okay with this, just as some Muslims have been okay with the many other acts of unimaginable barbarism I’ve read about during the past dozen years or so. And for the record, I did not say that most Muslims would be okay with whipping the girl to death. Where do you get this idea that 50% is some magical number anyway? Well there was at least one post (the one I quote) that makes reference to 50% to signify that a majority of Muslims believe something. Some Muslims are probably OK with fucking cats. So what? Some Christians, Athiests, Jews, etc would probably be OK with whipping a raped girl to death too. What is your point? You seem to want to paint the whole of the muslim faith with this one incident. If your point was not to connect muslims generaly with this event then why the title? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/308 "2011-02-09T18:26:06Z")
> [@AshenLady](#): > > I don’t think so…it’s precisely citing the Quran. There are things in the Old Testament which, in this day and age aren’t exactly real nice. It’s quoting it incorrectly and out of context. The so called “infidels” in thos passages have a very particular and narrow definition. It does not mean “non-Muslims.” Perhaps you should actually try to speak to a real Muslim sometime. You’ve obviously never met one. > [@](#): > > What gives you the right to act as though the books of Islam are perfect and don’t have embarrassing passages? Who said it’s perfect. I’m an atheist. I think all religions are equally ridiculous. The Bible probably says more reprehensible things than thge Koran does, though. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/309 "2011-02-09T18:26:35Z")
> [@NCDane](#): > > A positive reply to the poll questions does signify radical religious > fundamentalism, yes. … > > Although religious radicalization does not necessarily mean support > for suicide bombing and other forms of terrorism, I do think most > terrorist recruits come from the most religiously radical segment of > Muslim society. Since the terrorists operate in secrecy there is no way > of finding out for sure in most cases, Taliban/AQ in Afghnaistan being > a noteable exception. > > Now, if it should prove that Muslim moderates are providing as much > support for terrorism as the radicals then that makes Muslim threat > worse, not better. > > I am not sure that Lebanon does have more terrorists than Jordan. > The Wiki article on “suicide bombing” lists none there since the early 1980s. So you don’t think there are any terrorists in Lebanon? I’m sure Hezbollah would be glad to hear that. > [@](#): > > The 50% and 30% positive responses in Nigeria and Indonesia > are not exactly grounds for rejoicing. And what does that have to do with whether of not these countries would be fucked up with or without Islam? The point is that Islam is not uniquely predisposed to terrorism. Catholics in Ireland and Jews in Palestine also engaged in terrorism, so I suppose we could say the same thing about radical Christians and radical Jews. Did all the radical Catholics become moderates when the IRA stopped operating as a terrorist organization in Ireland or was it something else? Did all the radical Jews become moderates when Irgun started its transformation into the Likud party or did something else happen? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/310 "2011-02-09T18:31:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s quoting it incorrectly and out of context. The so called “infidels” in thos passages have a very particular and narrow definition. It does not mean “non-Muslims.” Perhaps you should actually try to speak to a real Muslim sometime. You’ve obviously never met one. Infidel doesn’t include Christians and Jews IIRC. > [@](#): > > Who said it’s perfect. I’m an atheist. I think all religions are equally ridiculous. The Bible probably says more reprehensible things than thge Koran does, though. If we had a contest where you cited one reprehensible or ridiculous bible passage for every ridiculous or reprehensible passage in the quran, we could go back and forth for 40 pages. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/311 "2011-02-09T18:45:52Z")
More \*\*magellan01 \*\*mracism. What a shock. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/312 "2011-02-09T18:55:07Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I happen to be Christian myself and I gotta tell you, there isn’t a lot of love for any type of religion on this site so I don’t think anyone is defending islam on the basis of its religious beliefs so much as defending Islam against racist bigotry. Just seconding this for added weight. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/313 "2011-02-09T19:18:31Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > More \*\*magellan01 \*\*mracism. What a shock. Uh oh. Now you’ve gone and done it. Here, **magellan01** , let me save you a trip: _Since when is Muslim a race?_ Now please go away. :rolleyes: _psssst._ **SFG**. Next time try _xenophobic_ provocativeness. ---
**Author:** ![NCDane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecccb3/32.png) [@NCDane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NCDane)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/314 "2011-02-09T19:20:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So you don’t think there are any terrorists in Lebanon? I’m sure Hezbollah would be glad to hear that. I did not say Lebanon had no terrorists or that Hezbollah was not a terrorist organization. I said “I am not sure that Lebanon does have more terrorists than Jordan”. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And what does that have to do with whether of not these countries would be fucked up with or without Islam? You specified ME countires, and Nigeria and Indonesia are not ME. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The point is that Islam is not uniquely predisposed to terrorism. Catholics in Ireland and Jews in Palestine also engaged in terrorism, so I suppose we could say the same thing about radical Christians and radical Jews. Irish Catholic terror was limited to the British Isles, and Jewish terror was limited to Palestine. Islamic terrorism is the only form of religious terrorism that I know of which has ever been so close to world-wide in scope. The Anarchists of apprx. 100 years ago were also nearly world-wide, but they were not religious. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Did all the radical Catholics become moderates when the IRA stopped operating as a terrorist organization in Ireland or was it something else? Did all the radical Jews become moderates when Irgun started its transformation into the Likud party or did something else happen? I did not follow events in Ireland close enough to know why the IRA simmered down. It may be that whatever support they were getting from other Catholics was eroding, and they decided to make the best deal they could. Likud became moderate when its goal of a Jewish state became reality. On the other hand, a common desire of Muslims worldwide is destruction of the Jewish state. This applies to Muslims who are unrelated to any inhabitants of Israel/Palestine except by religion. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/315 "2011-02-09T19:27:37Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Infidel doesn’t include Christians and Jews IIRC. Yes and no. The equivalent Arabic word would be _Kaffir_, or the plural\* Kufr\* which means “unbeliever”. In the Quran it’s supposed to mean people who don’t believe in the God of Abraham, so it clearly doesn’t apply to Christians or Jews including the passages cited by Ashenlady(not that this makes those passages more palatable to modern readers). That said, it should be noted there are a couple of passages where the concept of the holy Trinity and the divinity of Jesus is denounced in such a way as to imply that those who believe in them are unbelievers. However, in actual practice, Muslims and Muslim theologians regularly used that word to describe Christians and more recently to refer to Jews. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever heard it being used when it clearly didn’t refer to all non-Muslims and sometimes even those not seen as “true Muslims”. “Infidels” don’t come across terribly well in any of the Abrahamic religions and calling any of them “religions of peace” or “religions of war” is grossly simplistic. Those who actually use the word nowadays clearly are referring to Muslims and Jews when they use it. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/316 "2011-02-09T19:35:18Z")
> [@NCDane](#): > > I did not say Lebanon had no terrorists or that Hezbollah was not a terrorist organization. I said “I am not sure that Lebanon does have more terrorists than Jordan”. > > You specified ME countires, and Nigeria and Indonesia are not ME. > > Irish Catholic terror was limited to the British Isles, and Jewish terror was limited to Palestine. Islamic terrorism is the only form of religious terrorism that I know of which has ever been so close to world-wide in scope. > > The Anarchists of apprx. 100 years ago were also nearly world-wide, but they were not religious. > > I did not follow events in Ireland close enough to know why the IRA simmered down. It may be that whatever support they were getting from other Catholics was eroding, and they decided to make the best deal they could. > > Likud became moderate when its goal of a Jewish state became reality. On the other hand, a common desire of Muslims worldwide is destruction of the Jewish state. This applies to Muslims who are unrelated to any inhabitants of Israel/Palestine except by religion. (just proving that conventional line length can be achieved) Nothing substantive to add, except: **NCDane** _please_ knock it off with the unorthodox carriage returns. I don’t hate you for your views (although neither do I find them particularly persuasive or admirable. Nor am I continuing to read them, frankly), but I am very close to hating you for making my head hurt when I see your name on a post. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/317 "2011-02-09T19:37:58Z")
He’s posting on an Etch-A-Sketch. It has limitations. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/318 "2011-02-09T19:40:41Z")
_\_ ---
**Author:** ![AshenLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@AshenLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AshenLady)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/319 "2011-02-09T19:43:23Z")
Hey it’s only religion and are we here, so religous that every scintilla of religion needs close examination, as such? All religions and I mean ALL religions have screwed up things about them. No one gets a pass, not any of them. Whether it’s Pagan, or Jewish, Jain, or Zoroastrian, Islam, Christian…no religion is perfect because organized religion is quite probably a product of mankind, so imperfect are we all. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/320 "2011-02-09T19:48:08Z")
Doubt is as holy as faith, it helps protect us from the dreadful sins that arise from certainty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=17)