# More Muslim Marvelousnous **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243 "2011-02-05T03:19:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/61 "2011-02-05T19:20:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I recommend to anyone who is interested an excellent book by Karen Armstrong, _Islam: A Short History._ > > The faithful Muslim regards Jesus as a legitimate prophet, but refuse the notion of “Messiah”, as that imparts a divinity to Jesus that is anathema for them. Only Allah is Divine, prophets are human, they are the messengers and servants of God. Muslims also refuse to accept the Crucifixion, insisting that God would not permit such a thing to happen to one of His messengers. Are you sure Armstrong said that Muslims don’t claim he was the Messiah? If so, she’s wrong. Not only do Muslims think he’s the Messiah, but he’s referred to as “Al Masih” throughout the Quran. In fact most of the English translations which reference “Jesus” weren’t translating “Issa” but instead “Al Masih”. > [@](#): > > **John Mace** > What do Muslims think it meant to be “the Messiah”? Obviously, they don’t believe what Christians or Jews believe it means to be “the Messiah”. Actually, the Islamic concept of “the Messiah” is the same as the Jewish concept. It’s the Christian concept of “the Messiah”, the idea that “the Messiah” is divine that differs from both of them. Jews and Muslims don’t believe that “the Messiah” was(or will be in the case of Jews) divine. They believe that he’s a mortal being anointed or blessed by God. In fact “Messiah” means “anointed one”. Both Jews and Muslims object to the idea that the Messiah is God and is to be prayed to and thought of as God, because that strikes them as being too close to polytheism and idolatry for comfort. Similarly, many Evangelical Protestants don’t like the Catholic tradition of praying to saints which strikes them as being an example of idolatry. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/62 "2011-02-05T19:20:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yo quiero torquemada! Nunca esperamos Torquemada! ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/63 "2011-02-05T19:24:14Z")
The stage that Muslim extremists play upon is the backdrop of Islam, whilst there may well be good players, the script of the play is interpreted by the directors, and the intent of the whole has actors in differant roles, and yet the common theme is that the directors interpret the script in their own way, and consistantly this in Islam leads to extremism. You may well state that certain aspects of Islam are not there in the Q’ran, it does not matter one bit if this is the case, it is what the followers do in their actions that matter. Many of these extremists only read the book to confirm their bias and prejudices, not to look critically, indeed the way they are taught the book is not one of critical analysis, it is one of rote learning, and whilst they do this form of learning, they also learn that their opinions are recieved and not self developed, they become practised in being told what they must think. In any case, if one holy book states that the rape and murder of young girls is acceptable, that still does not make it so, no amount of justification from the scripts will make it so, but the obvious flaws and immoralities contained in these works are partly the basis of the opinions and behaviours of these people. You also have to think about the societies that spawn these religious crazies and ask yourself just how mainstream some of the lunatics are, the advocacy of the murder of apostates for example, or the murder of a state governor in Pakistan, which has actually been supported by many religious zealots there - he was murdered for daring to advocate greater freedom for women.This is not some lunatic fringe here, its pretty much the accepted belief. I can’t imagine any large scale religious groups whose senior leaders either approve or completely acquiesce to the murderous opinions of their followers, yet it happens in Islam all over the world. Any such religios leaders would also deserve to be condemned for such abrogation of moral responsibilities. Currently Islam is sick, there are plenty of other things wrong in the world too, I can complain about globalisation, or consumerism, or many other things, still, Islam should not get a free pass, Islam is at the root of much extremism, and for every extremist, there has to be fertile ground in the form of a population prepared to do little, or even actively support or mould these killers. I can’t recall an intance of moderate extremism, people murdering others for the right to live and let live. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/64 "2011-02-05T19:24:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What? Based on what you wrote I asked you a few _questions_ which I think reasonably follow. You can either agree in full, in part, or not at all. If either of the latter two, some reasoning for the disagreement might be nice. Do you really think it’s necessary to ask me if I think burning witches should be condemned? Are you thinking that maybe I might answer “no”? ---
**Author:** ![AshenLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@AshenLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AshenLady)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/65 "2011-02-05T19:25:11Z")
Torquemada muy mal!!! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/66 "2011-02-05T19:33:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And if they were doing it today, don’t you think it should be condemned? And that aspect of the religion? It’s one thing if witches were being burned in one small town, but the more widespread the practice the more the common denominator—the religion the frames things so that witch burning is a good idea—should be condemned. No? As I mentioned, in parts of Sub Saharran Africa, Christians are murdering “witches”. You’ve decided to condemn all of Islam for one act committed in Bangladesh, the poorest most backward country on Earth with the Bangladeshi authorities are trying to punish, yet you don’t condemn all of Christians for similar backwardness in the backward parts of the Christian world. Furthermore, you’ve completely ignored the fact that traditional Islam doesn’t proscribe stoning for adultery. In fact, unlike traditional Christianity it doesn’t even proscribe the death penalty. Yes, like Christianity and Judaism, the Quran says that adultery is a serious crime, but whereas the Bible says they are to be executed, the Quran merely proscribes lashes. In short those who stone women for adultery are going against the Quran. The stoning of women for adultery was, like female genital mutilation, a pre-Islamic practice that has unfortunately become part of what some Muslims view as Islamic tradition. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/67 "2011-02-05T19:33:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you really think it’s necessary to ask me if I think burning witches should be condemned? Are you thinking that maybe I might answer “no”? Please. That was not the only question asked and you know it. But your avoidance is duly noted. Next. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/68 "2011-02-05T19:38:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Nunca esperamos Torquemada! esperábamos, mi amigo. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/69 "2011-02-05T19:41:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Please. That was not the only question asked and you know it. But your avoidance is duly noted. > > Next. You’re right. I’m a secret Muslim apologist. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/70 "2011-02-05T19:42:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You’ve decided to condemn all of Islam for one act committed in Bangladesh,… Cite? I did nothing of the sort. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, like Christianity and Judaism, the Quran says that adultery is a serious crime, but whereas the Bible says they are to be executed, the Quran merely proscribes lashes. Please point to the bible passage that says that. Which testament? Which passage? Then point me to instances of a modern-day Christians executing adulterers. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The stoning of women for adultery was, like female genital mutilation, a pre-Islamic practice that has unfortunately become part of what some Muslims view as Islamic tradition. THAT’S the friggin point! I’ve said time and again that radical Islamists have hijacked and contorted a religion. But it’s not just a handful in some outpost. Look at the numbers in the posts by **NCDane**. Seems like you want to ignore those numbers. Today, it’s what the religion is, for hundreds of millions of people! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/71 "2011-02-05T19:45:02Z")
I like to think that if Magellan went into a sweat lodge the spirit animal guide he’d get would be a hemorrhoid. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/72 "2011-02-05T19:46:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re right. I’m a secret Muslim apologist. :rolleyes: Your words. Not mine. And it doesn’t reflect what I think. But it is interesting that you come into a thread and comment but won’t answer questions that would clarify your position. I cannot fathom why you be so determined to not answer and clarify. But hey, nobody’s twisting your arm. You’re free to enter discussions and not clarify your position all you want. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/73 "2011-02-05T19:48:52Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I like to think Can you substantiate this claim? Show some evidence for it? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/74 "2011-02-05T19:51:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yo quiero torquemada! Yo tambien! I especially like them with a side of Spanish rice and a dollop of sour cream. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/75 "2011-02-05T19:54:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Can you substantiate this claim? Show some evidence for it? Well,\* I am\*. So it seems to follow. ---
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/76 "2011-02-05T19:55:45Z")
If you asked the murderer why he did this he’d say, _by way of defence_, it was because of Islam. So why can’t we say that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/77 "2011-02-05T19:56:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Your words. Not mine. And it doesn’t reflect what I think. But it is interesting that you come into a thread and comment but won’t answer questions that would clarify your position. I cannot fathom why you be so determined to not answer and clarify. > > But hey, nobody’s twisting your arm. You’re free to enter discussions and not clarify your position all you want. :rolleyes: You questions were stupid and insulting. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/78 "2011-02-05T19:59:25Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Well,\* I am\*. So it seems to follow. Well, that would substantiate a particular instance of thought. I was looking for some instances that might substantiate your claim that you enjoy the process…that you engage in it regularly. I did a search of 100% of your posts and couldn’t find any such evidence. Did I miss something. Is their some other evidence you had in mind? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/79 "2011-02-05T20:06:08Z")
**Mags** , you are deliberately spreading hatred. Absent a more perfect definition of evil, that will do pretty well. May the blessed Baby Jesus shut your mouth and open your heart, amen. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/80 "2011-02-05T20:11:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You questions were stupid and insulting. Huh? You know what, BULLSHIT! Here’s what I asked you: > [@](#): > > And if they were doing it today, don’t you think it should be condemned? And that aspect of the religion? It’s one thing if witches were being burned in one small town, but the more widespread the practice the more the common denominator—the religion the frames things so that witch burning is a good idea—should be condemned. No? It’s a simple string of related questions. I assume we ALL would answer “yes” to the first question, which is there to set up the others, which explores the analogy YOU brought up further. If you sincerely think I intended to imply that you would not condemn witch burning, rest assured that you’re simply and totally mistaken. I do not think that. I do not think _anyone_ on The Dope thinks that. I do not think anyone _sane_ thinks that. So, that’s two reasons why I would not even entertain the idea that you would not condemn witch burning. But this thread is not about that. It is about why you brought up your analogy and the degree, or at what point, the actions of an isolated group(s) can be attributed to a common denominator that allows an atrocious behavior to take hold. So, now, I’ll ask you again to answer those questions. If you refuse, more power to you, man. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=5)