# More Muslim Marvelousnous **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243 "2011-02-05T03:19:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/881 "2011-02-12T19:55:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And here, even accounting for jest, we get to appreciate the parsec-wide chasm between how you perceive yourself and how you are perceived by others. Doesn’t matter, I’d do it anyway. Can’t help it, really. Fish gotta sing, birds gotta drown. Just the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/882 "2011-02-12T19:58:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Here’s the things, killing people is associated with one of those way more than the others. So, any serious attempt or desire to want to end it would have to hold Islam under a light. Or should we spend half our resources looking at Muslims and half looking at Quakers. Make sense? How are you holding it under a light? Are you encouraging more inclusive Muslims in their belief that tolerance is a religious virtue? Are you supporting Islamic reformers? Or are you just a fan of a Sam Huntington-esque clash of civilizations? ETA: this is before we get into the problem of, in essence, telling Muslims what their religion says, even though you don’t share it. That’s just stupid. Also, a number of the other groups have _massive_ problems getting along with other religions. Look at the Serbian Orthodox treatment of Muslims —or for that matter, Orthodox treatment of Protestants in predominantly Orthodox countries. Even more, relative to their size, the Sikhs have had a much bigger problem with violence than Muslims. See: the Lockerbie Bombing, or the assassination of Indira Gandhi. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/883 "2011-02-12T20:01:34Z")
Crud. I made two errors in my post upthread. The corrections are below: > [@Monty](#): > > Then there were a few Mulims Sailors on my first ship, Should read: > [@Monty](#): > > Then there were a few Muslims Sailors on my first ship, and > [@](#): > > 1. Look, there are approximately one billion Muslims on Planet Earth. If the religion really did require them to kill all non-Muslims, then there would alread be no Muslims at all in many countries, especially countries like Lebanon and Iraq, which have significant Christian communities. Should read: > [@](#): > > 1. Look, there are approximately one billion Muslims on Planet Earth. If the religion really did require them to kill all non-Muslims, then there would alread be no non-Muslims at all in many countries, especially countries like Lebanon and Iraq, which have significant Christian communities. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/884 "2011-02-12T20:18:06Z")
> [@Champion-of-Truth](#): > > Monty wrote: > > Ah, yes, the “I Know A Non-Violent Muslim Fallacy”. You’ll make a good dhimmi, really you will. Moron. > > Wow, I’m dazzled by your brilliant, penetrating logic. Not. :rolleyes: > > But then that’s what makes liberals so damned funny, and so damned fun to argue with. I’m a Liberal? That’s mighty big news to me and to everyone who knows me, I’d wager. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/885 "2011-02-12T20:22:11Z")
> [@Champion-of-Truth](#): > > Monty wrote: > > Ah, yes, the “I Know A Non-Violent Muslim Fallacy”. You’ll make a good dhimmi, really you will. Moron. > > Wow, I’m dazzled by your brilliant, penetrating logic. Not. :rolleyes: > > But then that’s what makes liberals so damned funny, and so damned fun to argue with. They just have no grasp of reality. They arbitrarily decide on strange beliefs for no discernible reason whatsoever. They are totally oblivious to reality and immune to logic. And best of all, they have a masturbatory obsession with their own experience and believe that their tiny perception of the world is the big picture. Totally infantilized narcissists. > > Of course, their debating skills are nil, and they don’t have the common sense most lower animals were born with, but hey, you can’t have everything, right? 😉 You are an idiot. I have nothing more to say. ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/886 "2011-02-12T20:25:38Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I’m a Liberal? That’s mighty big news to me and to everyone who knows me, I’d wager. Well, he does consider the New York Post and FoxNews to be “liberal rags”, so his idea of conservatism isn’t on par with most people. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/887 "2011-02-12T20:52:37Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > How are you holding it under a light? Through this very thread, for one. Whenever the religion is expressed in barbaric, animalistic terms, we should point a spotlight on it and call it what it is. We should announce it to the world. > [@straight\_man](#): > > Are you encouraging more inclusive Muslims in their belief that tolerance is a religious virtue? Are you supporting Islamic reformers? When a moderate Muslim has come to the fore I’ve supported him. Yes. I’m happy to see it and eager to do so when it happens. I’ve done so on these boards. > [@straight\_man](#): > > Or are you just a fan of a Sam Huntington-esque clash of civilizations? ETA: this is before we get into the problem of, in essence, telling Muslims what their religion says, even though you don’t share it. That’s just stupid. First, Huntington is right, it has come to a clash of civilizations. And I’m surprised that you have a hard time getting that. And most of that clashing has to do with the Muslim world. So the question is, do you want to support the side that is actually civilized or the side that is still practicing the barbarism they did 1,400 years ago? Finally, I have no interest in telling people what Islam says or dictates. I simply go by what _they_ tell _us_. > [@straight\_man](#): > > Also, a number of the other groups have _massive_ problems getting along with other religions. Look at the Serbian Orthodox treatment of Muslims —or for that matter, Orthodox treatment of Protestants in predominantly Orthodox countries. Even more, relative to their size, the Sikhs have had a much bigger problem with violence than Muslims. See: the Lockerbie Bombing, or the assassination of Indira Gandhi. What? Lockerbie was the act of Sikhs?! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/888 "2011-02-12T20:55:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Reported. > > Only kidding. But don’t you find it odd that an author as popular as Coulter would have her words banned here? You’re comfortable with that? Actually, I think that says more about the bigotry, stupidity, and lack of decency amongst the people who admire her. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/889 "2011-02-12T21:01:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This raises an interesting issue. Coulter is a very popular author. Her books repeatedly make it to the top ten, if not the number one spot, yet what she writes is not allowed on The Dope? Is that right? Some of the things she writes, certainly, would run afoul of some of the posting guidelines we have here. Some of the things Al Franken writes wouldn’t be allowed, either. While we generally aim to allow as broad a range of expression as possible on the boards, the scope of acceptable speech on the SDMB is significantly narrower than that allowed by the first amendment. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/890 "2011-02-12T21:09:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Some of the things she writes, certainly, would run afoul of some of the posting guidelines we have here. Some of the things Al Franken writes wouldn’t be allowed, either. While we generally aim to allow as broad a range of expression as possible on the boards, the scope of acceptable speech on the SDMB is significantly narrower than that allowed by the first amendment. I can see how some of what she writes does run afoul of the rules—if coming from a poster. But to not be able to discuss what she—someone who is repeatedly a best selling author—says seems odd for a debate board, no? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/891 "2011-02-12T21:10:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Actually, I think that says more about the bigotry, stupidity, and lack of decency amongst the people who admire her. And that opinion shows either a gross ignorance of her writings and the reasons people might like them or a very, very myopic view of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/892 "2011-02-12T21:31:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I can see how some of what she writes does run afoul of the rules—if coming from a poster. But to not be able to discuss what she—someone who is repeatedly a best selling author—says seems odd for a debate board, no? I don’t actually know that anything Ann Coulter has written would be forbidden here. We can come up with some hypotheticals, of course. What if Ann Coulter wrote a book about how to download pirated music and movies from the internet? What if she wrote a book about the best ways to cook up a batch of crack cocaine? Or, most pertinently, what if she wrote a book about how we should kill all the Muslims? As far as I’m aware, she hasn’t written about any of those subjects. She has stated that we should invade Muslim countries, kill their leaders, and convert their populations to Christianity. Which is an awful, hateful, and above all stupid sentiment. But it’s not a call to genocide, and that’s not what **Champion of Truth** was cautioned over. The problem I had with his post was the bit where he said we should nuke the middle east - which is, as far as I’m aware, not something Coulter has advocated. Although it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if she had - and if someone provides a cite to her straight-up calling for the genocide of the world’s Muslim population, we’re still in the same place as my earlier hypotheticals. If a poster is allowed to circumvent the board’s rules by couching the debate in terms of something said or written by an off-board personality, we’re going to pretty quickly find ourselves in a position where there are very few rules we can enforce, because there aren’t many ideas that haven’t been championed in print by someone, somewhere. Lots of copies of _The Anarchist Cookbook_ have been sold over the years. Probably not as many copies as Coulter’s books, but still a significant number. Should we, therefore, allow discussions of bomb making on the Straight Dope? Or does that book not count as popular? What metric are we using to define “popular,” precisely? Should popularity even be a consideration in what is and is not allowed to be discussed in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/893 "2011-02-12T21:49:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t actually know that anything Ann Coulter has written would be forbidden here. We can come up with some hypotheticals, of course. What if Ann Coulter wrote a book about how to download pirated music and movies from the internet? What if she wrote a book about the best ways to cook up a batch of crack cocaine? Or, most pertinently, what if she wrote a book about how we should kill all the Muslims? As far as I’m aware, she hasn’t written about any of those subjects. She has stated that we should invade Muslim countries, kill their leaders, and convert their populations to Christianity. Which is an awful, hateful, and above all stupid sentiment. But it’s not a call to genocide, and that’s not what **Champion of Truth** was cautioned over. The problem I had with his post was the bit where he said we should nuke the middle east - which is, as far as I’m aware, not something Coulter has advocated. Although it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if she had - and if someone provides a cite to her straight-up calling for the genocide of the world’s Muslim population, we’re still in the same place as my earlier hypotheticals. If a poster is allowed to circumvent the board’s rules by couching the debate in terms of something said or written by an off-board personality, we’re going to pretty quickly find ourselves in a position where there are very few rules we can enforce, because there aren’t many ideas that haven’t been championed in print by someone, somewhere. Lots of copies of _The Anarchist Cookbook_ have been sold over the years. Probably not as many copies as Coulter’s books, but still a significant number. Should we, therefore, allow discussions of bomb making on the Straight Dope? Or does that book not count as popular? What metric are we using to define “popular,” precisely? Should popularity even be a consideration in what is and is not allowed to be discussed in the first place? Thanks. Your response gets to what I was wondering about. I do think that an author’s popularity should be taken into account, in that at some point it shows that his/her views are shared by a large enough segment of the population to not be viewed as “extreme”. The original post you commented on was not my concern. The larger issue was, as I think you surmised. And while I don’t think there’s any problem in not allowing posts that show people how to break laws or make a bomb, when it’s something like what Coulter—a commentator and provocateur—said, or something that may have been intended as hyperbole, it’s a tougher call. Not one that there’s much point in discussing more in generalities. Thanks for your answer, though. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/894 "2011-02-12T22:34:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > First, Huntington is right, it has come to a clash of civilizations. And I’m surprised that you have a hard time getting that. And most of that clashing has to do with the Muslim world. So the question is, do you want to support the side that is actually civilized or the side that is still practicing the barbarism they did 1,400 years ago? Finally, I have no interest in telling people what Islam says or dictates. I simply go by what _they_ tell _us_. > > What? Lockerbie was the act of Sikhs?! Oops, naturally I meant the Air India bombing. Mea culpa. Pardon the slip. As for Huntington, no, of course he isn’t right —and in fact, his later work has more or less ruined his (formerly amazing) reputation among social scientists. The problem is, there’s no evidence for it — alliances cross his “civilizations” with an alarming frequency, and wars actually happen more within “civilizations” than without. Interpersonal identities and supports also cross civilizations. In fact, the best evidence for the clash of civilizations is the words of Qutb and Bin Laden and their ilk have to say. But why would I buy into their worldview? As for which side to support, that would depend on the conflict, wouldn’t it? You can be awfully fond of the West and identify yourself as a Westerner without thinking that the US should invade Iraq, for example. For that matter, there are Westerners who support Palestine over Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/895 "2011-02-12T22:37:20Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > A few things. First, I really don’t care about what happened in times past. why should we? Does it matter that Protestants burnt witches in a more ignorant time? Why? **What certainly matters is that they don’t do that today**. So, I’m fine judging a religion based on how it is expressed in our time. [Post 590](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13455286&postcount=590). 5000 children tortured and/or killed after being accused of being witches by Christian “pastors”. And that’s just one area of one country. Still want to stand by that statement? ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/896 "2011-02-12T22:43:40Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > [Post 590](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13455286&postcount=590). 5000 children tortured and/or killed after being accused of being witches by Christian “pastors”. And that’s just one area of one country. > > Still want to stand by that statement? Those weren’t _real_ Christians, but evil people using the moniker unjustly. In fact, they were probably secret Muslims intentionally dragging the name of Christiandom through the mud. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/897 "2011-02-12T22:45:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And that opinion shows either a gross ignorance of her writings and the reasons people might like them or a very, very myopic view of the world. Then please explain to me why she’s not a bigot. How is claiming that we should invade Muslim countries, kill their leaders, and then convert them to Christianity not bigotry? You realize that she was fired by The National Review(a notorious left-wing rag) for writing that? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/898 "2011-02-12T22:56:26Z")
Not to quibble, but the cite says 5,000 children have been abandoned, he estimates. Not that it is not ghastly enough in and of itself, but its not the same. Sometimes I wonder if that whole damned country weren’t built on top of an Indian burial ground, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/899 "2011-02-13T00:23:21Z")
I still wonder what **magellan** and **SA** would like to DO about the Muslims (my post 119), especially if they agree with the “perfect world” desires offered by **NCDane** in post 147. ETA: Or, for that matter, what they think of **Champion-of-Truth’s** support for their positions… ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/900 "2011-02-13T01:40:39Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > [Post 590](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13455286&postcount=590). 5000 children tortured and/or killed after being accused of being witches by Christian “pastors”. And that’s just one area of one country. > > Still want to stand by that statement? And once again, the Republican Party nominated for national office a woman who sought, and received a blessing from one of these. Isn’t supporting a party that would do this tantamount to supporting the Muslim Brotherhood, if not Hamas? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=46)