# More Muslim Marvelousnous **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243 "2011-02-05T03:19:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/961 "2011-02-15T14:02:50Z")
Well, at least we’ve established that mankind is a violent, hateful bunch of creatures for all sorts of bad reasons, and some individual members of the human race get more excited about that than others. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/962 "2011-02-15T15:47:20Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Well, hold on a minute. In the wall of blather that he erected over the past few days, pretty much the only factual point C-o-T made is that more religious violence is associated with Islam than with any other major religion. Of course no one seriously argued against that; it’s a simple fact, well documented and known to all, even if it grossly simplifies a number of complex local situations. _But that was not in fact his primary argument_. Well, that has been my point. I really am happy to see that there is agreement on that. Progress. [QUOTE=Ibn Warraq] Is it because that far more acts of violence, today, though not historically are committed by Islam? [/QUOTE] Yes. There really is no point in debating which religion was more violent in the past, since we aren’t living in the past. And it looks like we have more agreement that Islam—today—os the most violent religion. [QUOTE=Kimstu] “Worse” in what reference frame, and on what timescale? I would agree that, for example, nowadays in US politics conservatives on average and overall are more irrational and destructive in their politics than liberals are. Likewise, I agree that nowadays there is more and worse religiously-motivated violence worldwide associated with Islam than with any other major religion. [/QUOTE] More agreement on Islam being the most violent religion in today’s world. Excellent. This is a good start to the day. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/963 "2011-02-15T15:53:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We don’t really care about savagery and ignorance, if we did, we would fight poverty and ignorance. What concerns us is terrorism. Because terrorism is invariably about change, it threatens stability. Because terrorism is the weapon of the powerless, the only vehicle available for impotent rage. The Sandanistas were terrorists until they won, now they are social democrats. Would Tory Bostonians have described the Sons of Liberty as terrorist? > > The savagery of the regime the Sandanistas fought against would curl your hair. Only in the left wing radical press did anybody really give a shit about the terrorism inflicted by Samoza, Uguarte, Pinochet, Trujillo, etc. etc. > > The “war of civilizations” poison serves a number of agendas, but most prominently the agenda of the Islamic extremists, and the agenda of those who advance their various causes by presenting themselves as the firm enemies of “terror”. Which is to say, firm enemies of change, staunch allies of stability. > > We care very little about savagery that doesn’t interfere with business. Its the other kind that is “terrorism”. Its not about innocent bystanders, we slaughtered better than a hundred thousand innocent bystanders just lately, we aren’t terrorists. Terrorism is illegitimate savagery, unsanctified by our moral bloviations. If you can afford a modern army and modern air force, you aren’t a terrorist. If you could afford them, you most likely wouldn’t resort to terrorism. Outside your own borders, that is. What a crock of shit! And this is just the kind of nonsense that I was alluding to earlier that gives radical Islam quarter. You craft a string of bullshit like this in order to create a scenario to not condemn the acts of radical Islam or shine a light on Islam for being the most violent, barbaric religion on the face of today’s world.I can’t believe I’m saying this, but **Luci** , you should go back to spitting out you sophmoric fail-to-be-funny one-liners. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/964 "2011-02-15T15:58:48Z")
> [@margin](#): > > C\_o\_T and his brethren seem to imply that the victims of Islamic terrorism are Xtians, for example. Yet mostly they’re often other Muslims. And the West often doesn’t care, or dismisses it: “Let them all kill one another.” Oddly, you seem to have missed that the OP was crafted talking about a story in which the victim was a fourteen-year-old Muslim girl. And there have been plenty of posts and cites by us “brethren” talking about the Muslim victims of Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/965 "2011-02-15T16:11:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > More agreement on Islam being the most violent religion in today’s world. Excellent. This is a good start to the day. Now if we can get agreement on the equally obvious fact that the current situation doesn’t automatically imply that Islam has **always** had the most religious violence, or that Islam is somehow **intrinsically and essentially** more violent than other faiths, then the day will be even better. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/966 "2011-02-15T16:17:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What a crock of shit! And this is just the kind of nonsense that I was alluding to earlier that gives radical Islam quarter. You craft a string of bullshit like this in order to create a scenario to not condemn the acts of radical Islam or shine a light on Islam for being the most violent, barbaric religion on the face of today’s world.I can’t believe I’m saying this, but **Luci** , you should go back to spitting out you sophmoric fail-to-be-funny one-liners. And by condemning and attacking Islam as a whole, setting up an us (Western, white) agaisnt them (Eastern, brown) scenario, you alienate the people who have (a) the best chance of controlling ‘radical Islam’; and (b) the greatest interest in controlling ‘radical Islam.’ You make the claims of the extremists that America is trying to eliminate Islam credible to the recruiting targets. You make it harder for the Bangladeshi government to act against crimes such as these. Through the posturing of people like you, which serves no purpose other than making you feel better, you strengthen the bad guys. You put lives in danger in a very real way. And you have the chutzpah to say it is other people who are giving succor to ‘radical Islam.’ You’ve already said you think of posting an OP as being for the benefit the oppressed. That’s laughable. Why don’t you actually do something useful. Get involved in groups to show that America isn’t seeking a new crusade. However, when people like you do support a new crusade, that’s going to suffer some credibility problems, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/967 "2011-02-15T16:38:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Now if we can get agreement on the equally obvious fact that the current situation doesn’t automatically imply that Islam has **always** had the most religious violence, or that Islam is somehow **intrinsically and essentially** more violent than other faiths, then the day will be even better. Agreed. > [@](#): > > **Magellan01** > Yes. There really is no point in debating which religion was more violent in the past, since we aren’t living in the past. And it looks like we have more agreement that Islam—today—os the most violent religion. Um, no. Tell that to the Bosnians. By your standards then we should agree that Anglicans are more violent and radical than Muslims or Catholics because proportionately, they commit far more violence and encourage more violence as anyone familiar with Peter Akinola knows. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/968 "2011-02-15T16:47:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > …you should go back to spitting out you sophmoric fail-to-be-funny one-liners. No reason to be bitterly jealous, **Mags** , lots of folks hereabouts are laughing at you. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/969 "2011-02-15T16:55:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > [QUOTE=magellan01] > Yes. There really is no point in debating which religion was more violent in the past, since we aren’t living in the past. And it looks like we have more agreement that Islam—today—os the most violent religion. Um, no. [/QUOTE] But you said: (bolding mine) [QUOTE=Ibn Warraq] **Is it because that far more acts of violence, today** , though not historically are committed by Islam? [/QUOTE] You really need to make up your mind on what you believe. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/970 "2011-02-15T16:57:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > No reason to be bitterly jealous, **Mags** , lots of folks hereabouts are laughing at you. Whew! That’s better. Your little nuggets of stupid are easier to take than the big steam piles. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/971 "2011-02-15T17:03:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Now if we can get agreement on the equally obvious fact that the current situation doesn’t automatically imply that Islam has **always** had the most religious violence, or that Islam is somehow **intrinsically and essentially** more violent than other faiths, then the day will be even better. I do agree. It does not automatically imply those other things. They may or may not be true. I don’t really know. The only other one that is even of interest is the degree to which it is intrinsically barbaric. Not murderous, but barbaric. What I mean is that while I absolutely agree that you can strip away the terrorism and still have Islam, to what degree can you strip away the subjugation of women, their response to homosexuality, etc., and still have Islam. I am optimistic in these regards, but it necessitates that Muslims purge their religion of such behavior. And I’m not to optimistic about that happening. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/972 "2011-02-15T17:39:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What I mean is that while I absolutely agree that you can strip away the terrorism and still have Islam, to what degree can you strip away the subjugation of women, their response to homosexuality, etc., and still have Islam. Well, there are certainly lots of radical extremist Islamist fanatics in various sexist and homophobic Islamic societies who would argue vehemently that you can’t. On the other hand, majorities of both male and female Muslims surveyed in many Muslim countries around the globe [support equal legal rights for men and women](http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/john_esposito/2010/08/why_dont_women_have_more_rights_in_muslim_countries.html). And millions of Muslims in, say, Turkey and India seem to be perfectly fine with having full legal equality between men and women. Likewise, although homosexuality is condemned by most modern Muslims worldwide (as indeed it is by most modern Christians as well), there are plenty of individual Muslims who support gay rights, including US Muslim politicians such as [Rep. Saqib Ali of Maryland](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111770008) and Ako Abdul-Samad of Iowa. And of course, historically there have been many Muslim cultures in which homosexuality was not only tolerated but normal. So personally, I’m not inclined to let the radical extremist Islamist fanatics assume the role of _de facto_ spokesmen for “Islam” _per se_ when it comes to “Islam’s” attitudes towards women, homosexuality, etc. I prefer to support and encourage the vision of Islam espoused by Muslims whose views on human rights are more aligned with my own. And in fact, though they don’t show up in the news as much as the radical extremist Islamist fanatics do, there are actually a hell of a lot of them. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/973 "2011-02-15T17:57:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You really need to make up your mind on what you believe. I said that more acts of violence are associated with Islam today, meaning now, 2011, not over the past twenty years. If you go by the past twenty years, thanks to the Serb atrocities, Christians racked up a bigger body count due to violence. Moreover, as I already mentioned, when you take a look at the way so many Christians have interfered with trying to prevent the spread of AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa, the body count rises ridiculously higher. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/974 "2011-02-15T20:04:28Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, there are certainly lots of radical extremist Islamist fanatics in various sexist and homophobic Islamic societies who would argue vehemently that you can’t. > > On the other hand, majorities of both male and female Muslims surveyed in many Muslim countries around the globe [support equal legal rights for men and women](http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/john_esposito/2010/08/why_dont_women_have_more_rights_in_muslim_countries.html). And millions of Muslims in, say, Turkey and India seem to be perfectly fine with having full legal equality between men and women. > > Likewise, although homosexuality is condemned by most modern Muslims worldwide (as indeed it is by most modern Christians as well), there are plenty of individual Muslims who support gay rights, including US Muslim politicians such as [Rep. Saqib Ali of Maryland](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111770008) and Ako Abdul-Samad of Iowa. And of course, historically there have been many Muslim cultures in which homosexuality was not only tolerated but normal. > > So personally, I’m not inclined to let the radical extremist Islamist fanatics assume the role of _de facto_ spokesmen for “Islam” _per se_ when it comes to “Islam’s” attitudes towards women, homosexuality, etc. I prefer to support and encourage the vision of Islam espoused by Muslims whose views on human rights are more aligned with my own. And in fact, though they don’t show up in the news as much as the radical extremist Islamist fanatics do, there are actually a hell of a lot of them. Sanity never makes the front pages. Radical Islam does all to often. Also, it’s one thing to not approve of or condemn homosexuality. It’s quite another to say, if he’s gay, let’s kill him. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/975 "2011-02-15T20:09:11Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Moreover, as I already mentioned, when you take a look at the way so many Christians have interfered with trying to prevent the spread of AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa, the body count rises ridiculously higher. Do you really think that the _intent_ of the interference you refer to was to kill people? Of course, it wasn’t. And that is crucial. Also, there is a string of logic that argues that IF you could instill a great enough degree for abstinence, that more lives would be saved than through condom use. again, that goes to the “why” they did what they did. I’d love to hear you present a rationale for the animals in Iraq driving a truckload of explosives into a grammar school killing and maiming I don’t remember how many children. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/976 "2011-02-15T20:11:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I said that more acts of violence are associated with Islam today, meaning now, 2011, not over the past twenty years. Oh, and do you really wish to restrict this comparison to 2011 only? How about 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001, 2000, 1999, etc? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/977 "2011-02-15T20:16:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, and do you really wish to restrict this comparison to 2011 only? How about 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001, 2000, 1999, etc? Like I said, if we go back over the course of the past twenty years, even if we ignore those killed by coalition forces in Afghanistan and Iraq, aggressive Christians have slaughtered far more Muslims than aggressive Muslims have killed Christians as the victims of the Serbs can testify. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/978 "2011-02-15T20:17:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oddly, you seem to have missed that the OP was crafted talking about a story in which the victim was a fourteen-year-old Muslim girl. And there have been plenty of posts and cites by us “brethren” talking about the Muslim victims of Islam. Yeah, it brings to mind the wonderful days when Rush Limbaugh discovered womens’ rights—when he could use the concept to bash liberals for defending Bill Clinton. I’m not impressed at all when conservatives suddenly discover womens’ rights and concerns----they’re only angered when the offender is somebody they hate. Let the attacker be their bro, however, and suddenly she’s nothing but a bitch, a slut, whatever. I’ve seen too many reichwingers go, “But what about the women of Afghanistan! We have to free them!” only when it justified some action they approved of. When there wasn’t a war at stake for them to vicariously experience, they could give less of a shit. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/979 "2011-02-15T20:25:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do you really think that the _intent_ of the interference you refer to was to kill people?.. Honestly, I don’t give a shit about the “intent” because anyone with a working brain knows both that abstinence is a fantasy and that condoms save lives. End of. > [@](#): > > …I’d love to hear you present a rationale for the animals in Iraq driving a truckload of explosives into a grammar school killing and maiming I don’t remember how many children. Animals indeed. But where is your outrage when invading armies kill innocents by the hundreds of thousands? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/980 "2011-02-15T20:39:31Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Honestly, I don’t give a shit about the “intent” because anyone with a working brain knows both that abstinence is a fantasy and that condoms save lives. End of. While I advocate condom use for the prevention of AIDS in Africa, I think an abstinence message helps. But the fact that you do think “intent” matters does not surprise me. You want to give the animals a degree of cover. > [@RedFury](#): > > Animals indeed. But where is your outrage when invading armies kill innocents by the hundreds of thousands? War sucks. Happy? But the people who wage it for noble purposes are honorable. Unlike the animal radical Islamists. But, hey, to each their own… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=50)