# More Muslim Marvelousnous **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243 "2011-02-05T03:19:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1041 "2011-02-16T04:59:52Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Take for example the health care debate. Conservatives say they don’t want it because it creates too much government control, it will be more rather than less expensive, 85% of the population is happy with their health care already, etc. > > And how do liberals respond? “Conservatives only care about themselves.” “Conservatives WANT to see people dying in the streets for lack of health care.” “Conservatives are greedy assholes. They got theirs so fuck everybody else.” Etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad barfium. This was the debate where prominent conservative politicians accused liberals of wanting to create death panels to kill old people, correct? > [@](#): > > So then who do you decide to jump in and deride as an asshole? Why, me of course. Why don’t you go lecture posters like **Lobohan** who is seemingly incapable of posting disagreement without calling the other poster a “moron” or some veriation thereof? I have. I’ve also done the same to **ElvisL1ves** , **rjung** , **Der Trihs** , **reeder** , **gonzomax** , and **elucidator** , off the top of my head - although not all of them are regular posters anymore. Especially **reeder** , for obvious reasons. Also, possibly **Mr. Excellent** , unless I’ve confused him with someone else. Never gone after **mhendo** that I can recall, but then, I’ve never noticed him being particularly unreasonable on political matters. Maybe I’m reading the wrong threads. Or maybe you’re making shit up - pretty much even odds on that one, I figure. > [@](#): > > Nope, it’s me who’s the asshole. > > Curious that I happen to be a conservative too, isn’t it? Yeah, it _is_ kind of curious. Me calling a conservative an asshole is very much out of character for me. You must be something pretty special. > [@](#): > > And on preview: Names will do, provided you can attest that you scolded them with the same little philosophical lecture you used on me. With that specific language? Fuck if I remember. I know I’ve posted it here at least twice. I don’t recall if it was aimed at a specific poster, or in regards to something that was happening off board. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1042 "2011-02-16T05:02:50Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Well, one of them is your fault. You’d have a point if I had been an agressively abusive asshole when I arrived here. But I wasn’t. I only began to act that way because of the way the board’s liberal posters behave toward me, and because of the way they behave toward conservatives in general. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1043 "2011-02-16T05:11:03Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > None of them refer to as liberals evil… Um, one of the references that I actually cited speaks of their “scurrilous mouths emanating stench of evil”; how are you managing to interpret that as **not** calling them evil? > [@Starving Artist](#): > > …stupid, morons, mouth-breathing knuckkle-draggers, selfish, uncaring, sexist, racist Nonsense, you can find innumerable such instances of conservatives explicitly abusing liberals in those very words. E.g.: [“ignorant liberal morons”](http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=39725), [“why liberals are stupid”](http://www.broowaha.com/articles/2246/why-liberals-are-stupid), [“halfwit liberal mouthbreathers”](http://www.mail-archive.com/welcome-to-dnc2020@googlegroups.com/msg05305.html), [“liberal knuckledraggers”](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2360633/posts), [“selfish liberals”](http://hammeroftruth.com/2010/those-selfish-liberals-at-huffpo/), etc., etc., etc. Come on, **Starving Artist** , you’re not going to get anywhere with this feeble pretense of conservative superiority in reasoned discourse. It’s simply ridiculous to try to claim that conservatives don’t often insult and revile liberals in exactly the same way you complain about liberals often insulting and reviling conservatives. They certainly do, and the evidence is everywhere you look. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1044 "2011-02-16T05:11:17Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You’d have a point if I had been an agressively abusive asshole when I arrived here. I’m willing to bet you’ve been a really shitty person your entire life. > [@](#): > > But I wasn’t. I only began to act that way because of the way the board’s liberal posters behave toward me, and because of the way they behave toward conservatives in general. Conservatives get ire because their policies are often stupid and self-destructive. Take DADT or the Fair Pay act or DOMA or tax cuts that focus on the very rich or allowing businesses to regulate themselves. But even that wouldn’t be so bad if they (at least recently) argued in good faith. Instead we get death panels, tyranny, socialism, and outright lies. You even repeat these lies because you aren’t the sort of person who questions his beliefs. Doesn’t it bother you that you’re a vector for a disinformation virus? Some hollowed out cell that got taken over and just churns out copies of the lies, trying to infect others. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1045 "2011-02-16T05:15:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > This was the debate where prominent conservative politicians accused liberals of wanting to create death panels to kill old people, correct? No, that isn’t correct. They complained that a public health care system would result in death panels, not that liberals WANTED to create them. Similarly, I don’t think liberals of the late sixties WANTED to create a society like the one we have now, but just like liberal attitudes toward health care, they had tunnel vision and didn’t want to hear about consequences. > [@Miller](#): > > Or maybe you’re making shit up - pretty much even odds on that one, I figure. So much for civility. > [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, it _is_ kind of curious. Me calling a conservative an asshole is very much out of character for me. You must be something pretty special. I give what I get and what I see. Behaving that way will pretty much make any conservative an asshole around here - apart from being one intrisically that is. > [@Miller](#): > > With that specific language? Fuck if I remember. I know I’ve posted it here at least twice. I don’t recall if it was aimed at a specific poster, or in regards to something that was happening off board. Well, that matters. It’s one thing to tell one of the board’s liberal posters that he’s an asshole (which brings to mind a question. Have you called them assholes as people, as you just did me, or merely accuse them of being an asshole in a particular thread) and it’s another to give them a nice little seemingly wise philosophical lecture about the world being divided into two groups and they’re in the asshole crowd. In other words, I’m looking for equivalence. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1046 "2011-02-16T05:23:32Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > “Worse” in what reference frame, and on what timescale? > > I would agree that, for example, nowadays in US politics conservatives on average and overall are more irrational and destructive in their politics than liberals are. Likewise, I agree that nowadays there is more and worse religiously-motivated violence worldwide associated with Islam than with any other major religion. > > However, I wouldn’t say that political conservatives **throughout history** have necessarily been more irrational and destructive than political liberals overall, nor would I agree that Islam has **always** been a more violent religion than its competitors. > > Maybe that sort of qualification is what you meant by “quibbling”, but I think it’s a pretty important quibble. Ultimately, it’s the difference between, on the one hand, legitimately criticizing a particular political philosophy or religion in particular historical circumstances, and on the other hand extrapolating from that criticism to condemn the entire philosophy or religion _per se_, which is not so legitimate. It depends on what the meaning of “is” is. Let me put it this way: The controversy over the prospect of Islamists hijacking the revolution in Egypt is not whether or not it would be a bad thing, but how likely a prospect it is. Few would disagree that it would be a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1047 "2011-02-16T05:46:30Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’m willing to bet you’ve been a really shitty person your entire life. Tell you what, pal. How’s about you cough up enough to justify bringing you into my personal life, say $50,000 or so, and I’ll take you around, introduce you to my neighbors and friends, take you to the places I shop, introduce you to people I’ve done business with and so on, and let you watch the way we interact with each other and see if you think they regard me as an asshole. You could even ask them straight out if they would categorize me as an asshole. It would be amusing to watch their reactions. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Conservatives get ire because their policies are often stupid and self-destructive. Take DADT or the Fair Pay act or DOMA or tax cuts that focus on the very rich or allowing businesses to regulate themselves. First of all, I believe DADT was Clinton’s baby. And the rest are merely your interpretation. Conservatives don’t view them that way at all. Which brings us to… > [@Lobohan](#): > > But even that wouldn’t be so bad if they (at least recently) argued in good faith. Instead we get death panels, tyranny, socialism, and outright lies. I don’t know what lies you’re referring to, but the rest of it is accurate according to conservative views. Government largess leads to government control which = tyranny. Everyone working for the good of everyone else through government-enforced income redistribution and shared life expenses = socialism. Or at least what is commonly regarded as socialism by the public at large. And government health care will absolutely lead to death panels, in the sense that the government will never be able to pay for all the health care everyone will need and that at certain points decisions will be made as to whether or not to continue to fund the extension of someone’s life, and/or to pay for expensive treatment deemed wasteful given their age or the state of their condition. This is unavoidable and it absolutely will happen once the government gains full control of our health care. > [@Lobohan](#): > > You even repeat these lies because you aren’t the sort of person who questions his beliefs. Well, if I believe them they aren’t lies, are they? > [@Lobohan](#): > > Doesn’t it bother you that you’re a vector for a disinformation virus? Funny, I could just as easily ask that of you. Natually I don’t think anything I say in a serious vein is disinformation. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Some hollowed out cell that got taken over and just churns out copies of the lies, trying to infect others. And just from where is it you think I “copy” all these lies? I’ve fundamentally felt the same way about political issues since I became politically aware in my late teens. I got snockered drinking pitcher beer with one of my friends the night of the 1968 election out of dismay that Humphrey was going to win. I grew to detest the media over its decades-long harrassment of Richard Nixon, harrassement which culminated in the infliction of Jimmy Carter upon this country and over an issue that the media would have swept under the rug or persued perfunctorily and dropped had a Democrat been behind it. I have always felt that Social Security was a ripoff. I have always objected to the idea of government getting involved in our personal lives. Etc., etc., etc. I don’t listen to Rush Limbaugh, Bill O’Riley or any other political talk show hosts. My ideas and my views are based on the fact that I view most of what liberals want as harmful - as events have proven with the passage of tiem - and I’ve come to them all on my own, as my parents and the kids I went to school with were all pretty much apolitical. Even the ones who got drawn into the hippie lifestyle only did so in order to fit in and/or to do the sex, drugs and rock ‘n’ roll thing. Most of them knew nothing about liberal vs. conservative…or as I like to think of it, adolescents vs. adults. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1048 "2011-02-16T05:48:32Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Let me put it this way: The controversy over the prospect of Islamists hijacking the revolution in Egypt is not whether or not it would be a bad thing, but how likely a prospect it is. Few would disagree that it would be a bad thing. Well, yeah, because present-day Egyptian radical extremist Islamists are part of the repressive fundamentalist movement **within contemporary Islam** that all we liberal pro-democracy pro-human-rights types agree is a bad thing. As I said to **magellan01** , I think we’re all on the same page here in recognizing that Islam in much of the world has some serious problems these days with reactionary oppressiveness, religious violence, and so on. But that’s not the same thing as trying to argue that Islam is somehow overall, intrinsically, _in toto_, throughout history, innately “worse” than other religions when it comes to things like reactionary oppressiveness and religious violence. The former position is a realistic recognition of genuine and systemic serious problems in current religious movements within Islam. The latter, as best as I can figure it, is basically nothing more than Islamophobic bigotry trying to justify itself by selectively chosen evidence. However, if nobody here is actually defending that latter position, as **magellan01** opines, then it isn’t relevant to this discussion. I asked you about it simply because I couldn’t quite tell from your earlier post which of the two you meant. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1049 "2011-02-16T06:06:19Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Once upon a time I tried being polite and arguing in good faith, and got exactly nowhere with it. […] > > But finally I got tired of pissing in the wind and decided to give as good as I get. It’s not my fault that the board is populated by aggressively abusive assholes, and it’s certainly not my fault that they coincidentally happen to be liberals. > > I can honestly say that no one…absolutely not one person that I know in off-board life…thinks I’m an asshole. In fact, most would either be shocked and/or laugh at the accusation. > > So, yeah, it is the board’s liberal assholes who are responsible for the way I act. […] > > How’s about you cough up enough to justify bringing you into my personal life, say $50,000 or so, and I’ll take you around, introduce you to my neighbors and friends, take you to the places I shop, introduce you to people I’ve done business with and so on, and let you watch the way we interact with each other and see if you think they regard me as an asshole. :dubious: So, after admittedly devoting years of effort on this board to deliberately acting like an aggressively abusive asshole for rhetorical purposes—effectively enough that you manage to convince everybody that you **are** an aggressively abusive asshole—then, when someone doesn’t immediately believe your unsupported assertions that you’re not actually an aggressively abusive asshole in your off-board life, you’ll require fifty grand to show them the evidence? I’m not sure you’re really strengthening your argument very much here. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1050 "2011-02-16T06:31:57Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Tell you what, pal. How’s about you cough up enough to justify bringing you into my personal life, say $50,000 or so, and I’ll take you around, introduce you to my neighbors and friends, take you to the places I shop, introduce you to people I’ve done business with and so on, and let you watch the way we interact with each other and see if you think they regard me as an asshole. You could even ask them straight out if they would categorize me as an asshole. It would be amusing to watch their reactions. Are you asking me on a date? For 50k? That had better be some supple mangina you’ve got there. > [@](#): > > First of all, I believe DADT was Clinton’s baby. And the rest are merely your interpretation. Conservatives don’t view them that way at all. Which brings us to… Are you for real? DADT was what Clinton could get through the prejudiced conservatives in congress. It was an bargain struck with the other option being simply not allowed to serve. It’s amazing how utterly unable to think clearly you are some times. But I guess you wouldn’t believe what you do if you could think sharp. > [@](#): > > I don’t know what lies you’re referring to, but the rest of it is accurate according to conservative views. Government largess leads to government control which = tyranny. Everyone working for the good of everyone else through government-enforced income redistribution and shared life expenses = socialism. Or at least what is commonly regarded as socialism by the public at large. And government health care will absolutely lead to death panels, in the sense that the government will never be able to pay for all the health care everyone will need and that at certain points decisions will be made as to whether or not to continue to fund the extension of someone’s life, and/or to pay for expensive treatment deemed wasteful given their age or the state of their condition. This is unavoidable and it absolutely will happen once the government gains full control of our health care. You’re aware that there are “death panels” now, right? Insurance companies. They decide who gets what treatment and their decisions are based on money. For that matter, aren’t you in Medicare? Why aren’t there death panels now? You do know that the government controls Medicare, right? Jesus fuck, all I’m asking is that if you want to live your life in unexamined ignorance, to not try to debate while people who actually are informed are talking. > [@](#): > > Well, if I believe them they aren’t lies, are they? They are lies told to you that you repeat. If you’re gullible enough to believe them you aren’t lying, but you’re repeating a lie. That clear enough? > [@](#): > > Funny, I could just as easily ask that of you. Natually I don’t think anything I say in a serious vein is disinformation. Naturally. > [@](#): > > And just from where is it you think I “copy” all these lies? I’ve fundamentally felt the same way about political issues since I became politically aware in my late teens. I got snockered drinking pitcher beer with one of my friends the night of the 1968 election out of dismay that Humphrey was going to win. I grew to detest the media over its decades-long harrassment of Richard Nixon, harrassement which culminated in the infliction of Jimmy Carter upon this country and over an issue that the media would have swept under the rug or persued perfunctorily and dropped had a Democrat been behind it. I have always felt that Social Security was a ripoff. I have always objected to the idea of government getting involved in our personal lives. Etc., etc., etc. I don’t listen to Rush Limbaugh, Bill O’Riley or any other political talk show hosts. My ideas and my views are based on the fact that I view most of what liberals want as harmful - as events have proven with the passage of tiem - and I’ve come to them all on my own, as my parents and the kids I went to school with were all pretty much apolitical. Even the ones who got drawn into the hippie lifestyle only did so in order to fit in and/or to do the sex, drugs and rock ‘n’ roll thing. Most of them knew nothing about liberal vs. conservative…or as I like to think of it, adolescents vs. adults. You make factual claims, I assume the information comes from somewhere. I don’t know what you’re listening to, but it is heavily biased to feed your pre-conceived notions. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1051 "2011-02-16T06:33:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, yeah, because present-day Egyptian radical extremist Islamists are part of the repressive fundamentalist movement **within contemporary Islam** that all we liberal pro-democracy pro-human-rights types agree is a bad thing. Oh, what a load of crap. :rolleyes: So opposition to the ills of Islam (I won’t call it extremism because things like whippings and hangings of young girls and “honor” killings by family members are too widespread and common to be attributed to extremism) and being pro-democracy are “liberal” qualities now? George W. Bush favored the introduction of democracy into the Middle East and hoped (presciently it would appear) that a democratic Iraq could lead to the spread of democracy throughout the region. Are you therefore calling him a liberal? What about William F. Buckley, also a staunch supporter of democracy? Or Ronald Reagan? It’s absolutely ludicrous that you’re trying to claim that being in favor of democracy and concern for human rights is a liberal position. Particularly where it comes to Islam, which although defended at every opportunity by this country’s liberals, is about the most dictatorial, inflexible and repressive religion and basis for government that exists today. But then so was Communism in its day, and you liberals were all about that. And for most of the last fifty or sixty years there has scarcely been a lefist dictator in Latin America that the American left hasn’t fallen in love with. Liberals are pro-democracy and pro-human rights, my ass. > [@Kimstu](#): > > and As I said to **magellan01** , I think we’re all on the same page here in recognizing that Islam in much of the world has some serious problems these days with reactionary oppressiveness, religious violence, and so on. > > But that’s not the same thing as trying to argue that Islam is somehow overall, intrinsically, _in toto_, throughout history, innately “worse” than other religions when it comes to things like reactionary oppressiveness and religious violence. > > The former position is a realistic recognition of genuine and systemic serious problems in current religious movements within Islam. The latter, as best as I can figure it, is basically nothing more than Islamophobic bigotry trying to justify itself by selectively chosen evidence. > > However, if nobody here is actually defending that latter position, as **magellan01** opines, then it isn’t relevant to this discussion. I asked you about it simply because I couldn’t quite tell from your earlier post which of the two you meant. Since it does indeed appear that we’re all on the same page in this regard, I’m wondering where you got the idea that anyone is wanting to argue that Islam throughout history has been worse then everybody else? > [@Kimstu](#): > > So, after admittedly devoting years of effort on this board to deliberately acting like an aggressively abusive asshole for rhetorical purposes—effectively enough that you manage to convince everybody that you are an aggressively abusive asshole—then, when someone doesn’t immediately believe your unsupported assertions that you’re not actually an aggressively abusive asshole in your off-board life, you’ll require fifty grand to show them the evidence? Reading comprehension doesn’t seem to be one of your strong suits, does it? First you think people critical of Islam in this thread are wanting to argue that it’s the worse in history when no one has said that, and now you think I’m wanting to charge $50,000 to show Lobohan evidence that I’m a nice guy in off-board life. > [@Kimstu](#): > > I’m not sure you’re really strengthening your argument very much here That’s because I’m not doing what you think I am. The fact of the matter is that I can’t provide the evidence without bringing someone into my private, off-board life and making them privy to people I know and work and live around. The fifty grand is to make sure that: a) they’re serious (and I forgot to mention it but there would be a confidentiality agreement involved also); b) to provide me with some kind off payoff for taking that risk; and c) to provide for a certain amount of legal assistance should it become necessary to sue in the case of breach of contract. Would you want to bring me into your life and make me privy to everyone you know for no remuneration at all? And now I’ve got to go. Normally I’m a night owl but I have to get up in the morning to attend a funeral. So I’m out for the rest of the night. Those inclined to do so may now claim victory accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1052 "2011-02-16T06:40:39Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Those inclined to do so may now claim victory accordingly. zzzzzzzzzzzzz…Victory…zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1053 "2011-02-16T06:59:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Sorry for the partial double post a couple of posts up. We had unexpected company a few minutes ago and I forgot I was in the middle of an edit at the time. Errands _and_ company? Your life is the stuff dreams are made of. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1054 "2011-02-16T07:03:49Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, please explain to me why Islam is worse? Because it’s more conservative. 😛 > [@](#): > > Is it because of the way Islamic theology differs from Christian theology or because of the way the Quran differs from the Bible? No. Or at least, that’s not what I emphasize. This isn’t really about Christianity, but wester culture in general vs the culture that tends to prevail in predominantly Muslim societies. > [@](#): > > Is it because that far more acts of violence, today, though not historically are committed by Islam? That’s the tip of the iceberg, yes. > [@](#): > > If so, why do you discount the fact that Christianity has racked up a far larger body count in the past few decades? Well, I did say “Western culture”, so I can’t weasel out by saying the Iraq war had nothing to do with Christianity. The high death rate in the Iraq war is in part due to the fact that Muslims are the kind of people who would bite the hand the frees them. If you’re referring to Bosnia or East Africa, these are limited in space and time and hardly representative of Western culture as epitomized by the US. > [@](#): > > You’ll notice that the Christian parts of sub-Saharran Africa have been far more ravaged by AIDS than the Muslim parts. > > You’ll notice that thanks to the US and the Vatican much of the money dispersed throughout those regions can’t be used for the promotion or distribution of condoms. > > You’ll also notice that in many parts of Sub-Saharran Africa the only information that people hear about condoms is from Christian priests who proclaim that using condoms is a sin and who deliberately spread false information about condoms. > > By contrast, while with rare exceptions, most Muslim Clerics don’t have problems with married people using condoms because Muslims don’t see sex and interwined with sin and shame the way Christians do. > > The closest you ever come to Muslims being against condoms is some Muslim clerics argue that only married people should be able to use them. By contrast, the Catholic Church says no one should use them. I’ll admit that surprises me, so Islam scores a point here. Enjoy your point. But contraceptive use remains widespread throughout the West, and people a seldom subjected to violence in response to sexual behavior. Meanwhile, we have the [Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_the_Promotion_of_Virtue_and_the_Prevention_of_Vice_(Saudi_Arabia)) > [@](#): > > I object to people claiming that Islam is better. Don’t tempt me. 😉 > [@](#): > > Finally, since we’re talking over the internet and there’s nothing stopping you from using google in response to the next paragraph, I’ll ask you what you would think of someone who proclaimed Judaism was worse than Christianity and then appeared ignorant of what the Talmud was, or who proclaimed Catholicism was worse than Protestantism but then confessed he didn’t know what the difference between a “hail Mary” and an “our Father” was? > > I suspect you wouldn’t think much of that person. > > Similarly, I wouldn’t think much of someone who couldn’t answer a few basic questions that any ten-year-old Muslim could answer. > > What are the _ahadith_?(hint not being able to answer that question yet having strong opinions about Islam is like having strong opinions about Judaism and not knowing what the Talmud is) > > What is a _Marja_?(Hint, not being able to answer such a question is the equivalent of saying “What’s the difference between a Bishop and a Cardinal”). > > Some Muslims pray to saints and some don’t? Who are the former and who are the latter? > > Why are some vocal members of the latter group disgusted by members of the former group?(Hint, think of Moses). > > If you can’t answer such questions, you really shouldn’t make such comments about Islam. > > For your sake, I hope you don’t have to go to wikipedia or some other even less reliable source for the answer. Would it help if I said, “I meant to say Islamism.”? I’m talking about a cultural force that, while there is a fair amount of variance, is pervasively extremist throughout a broad region and across a broad range of issue. It’s the sheer gamut, from terrorist attacks to making women wear those getups to the way so many Muslims went apeshit over those Danish Mohammed cartoons (by comparison, Tea Partiers are merely batshit). The religion is forming the basis for a broader ideological movement or identity that inspires a lot of political behavior. Bad behavior. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1055 "2011-02-16T07:26:46Z")
I think we should have a special thread, a permanent thread in honor of **SA** , it’ll be Starker’s Sticky! He can start it off with about ten of his Greatest Hits. Maybe “Liberals Are Mean To Me” and, for sure, “Liberals Are Mean To Me”. And who could forget “No, Really, Liberals Are Not Nice To Me, Just Because I Blame Them for Everything from Gonorrhea to Justin Bieber”. Then we would have, like, one-stop shopping for all your **Starving Artist** piss and moan needs! That way, if we are talking about the impending comet strike gonna kill us all, we won’t have to listen to him bitch and perform his aria “Its Because of the Liberal Hypocrisy!”. Unless we want to, of course, it will be right there in the _Starker’s Sticky_. Maybe a separate one for when he gets drunk? Starkers and Hooch? Or would that be wrong? Yeah, that would be wrong. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1056 "2011-02-16T08:17:54Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > They did. Once upon a time I tried being polite and arguing in good faith, and got exactly nowhere with it. Over time I even got occasional compliments for my politeness and civility in the face of angry, insulting pile-ons. You yourself once referred to me as “one of the good ones.” Yeah, I remember that time. You know why it stopped? Because of this: > [@](#): > > But finally I got tired of pissing in the wind and decided to give as good as I get. It’s not my fault that the board is populated by aggressively abusive assholes, and it’s certainly not my fault that they coincidentally happen to be liberals. See, I never did any of that stuff to you. Like you said, I used to stand up for you. And what did I get for my troubles? You start insulting me, because I have different politics than you. Not because of anything I’ve done - but because some other guy who marks ballots the same way I do was mean to you. Seriously, how do you defend that? How can you possibly look at that situation, and think, “Yeah, that’s justified?” > [@](#): > > I can honestly say that no one…absolutely not one person that I know in off-board life…thinks I’m an asshole. In fact, most would either be shocked and/or laugh at the accusation. How many of these people have political views that differ from yours? How often do you share your political views with them? > [@](#): > > So, yeah, it is the board’s liberal assholes who are responsible for the way I act. Get them to behave civilly toward me despite the fact that I’m a conservative and you’ll see me behave civilly toward them despite the fact that they are liberals. So, your behaving civilly towards me, is contingent on my ability to make someone I’ve never even met in real life change their behavior? Again, how is that defensible? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1057 "2011-02-16T09:03:18Z")
What’s the projection for when this thread get retitled _Meltdown Express_? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1058 "2011-02-16T11:03:56Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Oh, what a load of crap. :rolleyes: > > So opposition to the ills of Islam (I won’t call it extremism because things like whippings and hangings of young girls and “honor” killings by family members are too widespread and common to be attributed to extremism) and being pro-democracy are “liberal” qualities now? You spectacularly misread the post you’re replying to, or are deliberately misrepresenting it. And you throw a bit more poison into the well in the process. Nice. > [@](#): > > George W. Bush favored the introduction of democracy into the Middle East and hoped (presciently it would appear) that a democratic Iraq could lead to the spread of democracy throughout the region. By means of a coup d’etat with a view to imposing a very specific America-friendly leader on the Iraqi people. The irony meter, it esplode. > [@](#): > > What about William F. Buckley, also a staunch supporter of democracy? Or Ronald Reagan? What about them? > [@](#): > > It’s absolutely ludicrous that you’re trying to claim that being in favor of democracy and concern for human rights is a liberal position. Particularly where it comes to Islam, which although defended at every opportunity by this country’s liberals, is about the most dictatorial, inflexible and repressive religion and basis for government that exists today. You really need to read for comprehension, given that this strawman has already been disassembled and scattered to the wind. > [@](#): > > But then so was Communism in its day, and you liberals were all about that. Ah. I see you’ve regathered the straw. Apart from **Commissar** who is not so much “left” or “right” as “in a world all his own”, I don’t recall anyone here saying that Communism is a great thing. And things other people said sixty years ago are really not germane to what people here now think. > [@](#): > > And for most of the last fifty or sixty years there has scarcely been a lefist dictator in Latin America that the American left hasn’t fallen in love with. Cite? Especially when your democracy-and-human-rights-loving Reagan was so fond of people like [this guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet)and [this guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Marcos) and, oh yeah, [this guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein). > [@](#): > > Liberals are pro-democracy and pro-human rights, my ass. We are definitely not pro-your ass. But while you parse that, you might consider the relative liberal or conservative bent of these [organizations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_rights_organisations). Take your time. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1059 "2011-02-16T13:12:07Z")
I think it’s just fascinating the way everyone seems so preoccupied with SA. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1060 "2011-02-16T13:41:13Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > So opposition to the ills of Islam (I won’t call it extremism because things like whippings and hangings of young girls and “honor” killings by family members are too widespread and common to be attributed to extremism) and being pro-democracy are “liberal” qualities now? George W. Bush favored the introduction of democracy into the Middle East and hoped (presciently it would appear) that a democratic Iraq could lead to the spread of democracy throughout the region. Are you therefore calling him a liberal? What about William F. Buckley, also a staunch supporter of democracy? Or Ronald Reagan? > > It’s absolutely ludicrous that you’re trying to claim that being in favor of democracy and concern for human rights is a liberal position. Calm down, I’m not claiming that being in favor of democracy and concern for human rights is **exclusively** a liberal position. There are plenty of conservatives who support those things too. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > now you think I’m wanting to charge $50,000 to show Lobohan evidence that I’m a nice guy in off-board life. Well, that’s pretty much exactly what you said: > [@Starving Artist](#): > > How’s about you cough up enough to justify bringing you into my personal life, say $50,000 or so, and I’ll take you around, introduce you to my neighbors and friends, take you to the places I shop, introduce you to people I’ve done business with and so on, and let you watch the way we interact with each other and see if you think they regard me as an asshole. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > Would you want to bring me into your life and make me privy to everyone you know for no remuneration at all? I would certainly not want to bring you into my life under any circumstances; I personally prefer that virtual communities such as this messageboard remain virtual, with rare and carefully considered exceptions. If I **were** willing to become acquainted with you in real life, though, I wouldn’t care to charge for it, whether to guard against risk or to make a profit commercially or for any other reason. You’re perfectly within your rights to charge for it if you want to, of course; I’m just not sure that it’s supporting the impression you’re trying to assert of yourself as having a different personality in real life than on these boards. The fact is, AFAICT, that a messageboard persona is pretty much exclusively defined by how one acts on the messageboard, not by unsupported claims about how one acts outside the messageboard. If you deliberately spend years here behaving like an asshole because you think your board mission demands it, then there’s not much you can do about it when people become convinced that you really **are** an asshole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=54)