# More Muslim Marvelousnous **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243 "2011-02-05T03:19:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 55
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1081 "2011-02-16T23:32:02Z")
> [@Shot From Guns](#): > > Here goes that strawman again. Who is advocating tolerance of these shitheads? Oh, wait, nobody here. We’re simply arguing against tarring all of those scary brown people with the same bigoted brush. Yes, I know. So am I, remember? > [@Kimstu](#): > > As I said to **magellan01** , I think we’re all on the same page here in recognizing that Islam in much of the world has some serious problems these days with reactionary oppressiveness, religious violence, and so on. > > But that’s not the same thing as trying to argue that Islam is somehow overall, intrinsically, in toto, throughout history, innately “worse” than other religions when it comes to things like reactionary oppressiveness and religious violence. > > The former position is a realistic recognition of genuine and systemic serious problems in current religious movements within Islam. The latter, as best as I can figure it, is basically nothing more than Islamophobic bigotry trying to justify itself by selectively chosen evidence. It’s kind of impressive that on the same page of the same thread I can be accused by **Starving Artist** of making a strawman argument in one direction because “no one has argued that […] Islam throughout history has been worse then everybody else”, and then accused by **Shot From Guns** of making a strawman argument in the other direction because “nobody here […] is advocating tolerance of these shitheads”. I think after 20+ pages, folks may be feeling a little bit tired. To clarify, I’m not accusing anybody here (not counting the recently banned, natch) **either** of trying to make excuses for radical Islamists or trying to condemn Islam as a whole for the sins of the radical Islamists. However, I don’t see anything wrong with explicitly making the point that both of those are bad things. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1082 "2011-02-16T23:34:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Can you address my point about your attribution of the violence to the Q’uran? If the words in teh q’uran is what is causing all this violence then you would expect this relative level of violence and fucked up shit throughout history and that simply doesn’t seem to be the case. **Damuri Ajashi** : Making stuff up is old hat for ol’ magellan. [This post of mine](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12634222&postcount=165) sums up his _modus operandi_ succinctly, IMHO. And, surprise, surprise! He trotted out the same tired bigotry in another thread where he blamed all Muslims for the actions of a few and, of course, ignored the bad actions of a few Christians. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1083 "2011-02-17T00:43:33Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > **Damuri Ajashi** : Making stuff up is old hat for ol’ magellan. [This post of mine](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12634222&postcount=165) sums up his _modus operandi_ succinctly, IMHO. And, surprise, surprise! He trotted out the same tired bigotry in another thread where he blamed all Muslims for the actions of a few and, of course, ignored the bad actions of a few Christians. Man, you’re dumb. Oh, and nice **Dio** move there with “my post is my cite”. :rolleyes: You’re such an asshole I can only imagine that you stick your head in the toilet bowl to sneeze. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1084 "2011-02-17T00:52:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’re such an asshole I can only imagine that you stick your head in the toilet bowl to sneeze. ??? Is that what your asshole does? Inquiring minds want to know. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1085 "2011-02-17T01:12:22Z")
[QUOTE=Monty;13475315[This post of mine] ([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12634222&postcount=165](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12634222&postcount=165)) sums up his _modus operandi_ succinctly, IMHO. [/QUOTE] Monty, I am not sure why you are giving **magellan01** grief about his comment, there. After all, he is pretty much stating, openly, that when we look at people on the Right of American politics, until we “have a fool-proof way cull the evil-trying-to-kill-us ones from the peaceful ones” “to be wary of the whole lot.” Such a modest proposal. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1086 "2011-02-17T01:17:01Z")
Good one, **tomndebb**! And, magellan, that’s not a “my post is my cite” citation. I’m merely stating that I’ve summed up your shenanigans before on the topic of Muslims and provided proof that I have summed it up before. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1087 "2011-02-17T02:49:40Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > **Damuri Ajashi** : Making stuff up is old hat for ol’ magellan. [This post of mine](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12634222&postcount=165) sums up his _modus operandi_ succinctly, IMHO. And, surprise, surprise! He trotted out the same tired bigotry in another thread where he blamed all Muslims for the actions of a few and, of course, ignored the bad actions of a few Christians. I think its deeper than simple bigotry. Simple bigotry can be overcome by a conscious effort. When that bigotry is married with fear, reason simply cannot prevail as long as you can make ANY argument to sustain the bigotry.. For example, one woman in my neighborhood was on the 395 when the plane flew into the pentagon. She was always a mild bigot and somewhat uncomfortable around poor minorities. Then she felt like that these muslims might fly a plane into her house or set off a bomb at her kid’s soccer practice and suddenly she had opinions that she didn’t want her kids to hear. Magellan, if you have kids, how comfortable would you feel sharing these feelings with them? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1088 "2011-02-17T03:55:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Monty, I am not sure why you are giving **magellan01** grief about his comment, there. > After all, he is pretty much stating, openly, that when we look at people on the Right of American politics, until we “have a fool-proof way cull the evil-trying-to-kill-us ones from the peaceful ones” “to be wary of the whole lot.” > Such a modest proposal. Ah, The King Apologist comes in…and with bullshit. I’m so shocked. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1089 "2011-02-17T04:15:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think its deeper than simple bigotry. Simple bigotry can be overcome by a conscious effort. > > When that bigotry is married with fear, reason simply cannot prevail as long as you can make ANY argument to sustain the bigotry.. > > For example, one woman in my neighborhood was on the 395 when the plane flew into the pentagon. She was always a mild bigot and somewhat uncomfortable around poor minorities. Then she felt like that these muslims might fly a plane into her house or set off a bomb at her kid’s soccer practice and suddenly she had opinions that she didn’t want her kids to hear. > > Magellan, if you have kids, how comfortable would you feel sharing these feelings with them? Are you kidding. I make them repeat what I say 100 times. And if they make even one little mistake, they get the ruler on the back of their little hands. Two mistakes, they get the ruler and no dinner. What you seem to not comprehend is that there really are people who want to kill us. Really. They killed some of us already and others have tried and failed. Still others have sworn to do more damage to us than 9/11 did. So, _some_ fear is both justified and healthy. And these people share one thing—they’re radical Islamists. We certainly can quibble as to exactly how much of a threat there is (which the government is constantly trying to assess), and based on that how much fear is healthy. Healthy because it will cause vigilance. But you’ll have none of that. In your child mind you see me as leaping from: threat \> identify threat \> radical Islam, and jump to an accusation of racist or bigot. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1090 "2011-02-17T04:19:23Z")
Kimstu, I largely agree with your post, but one nitpick. You’re using the term Salafi and Wahhabi as if they apply to the different groups. They’re the same. Wahhabi is what those who oppose Salafis call them. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1091 "2011-02-17T04:19:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Ah, The King Apologist comes in…and with bullshit. I’m so shocked. That puts the count of people who I _know_ are religious and are objecting to your treatment of Islam _just in this thread_ to three. (That’s **tomndebb** , who’s Catholic, **Monty** , who’s Mormon, and me, an Anglican. There are quite probably more.) Come to think of it, I don’t think any of the three are what you would call religiously liberal (though I personally lean that way politically.) Just keep it in mind. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1092 "2011-02-17T04:24:05Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Its adherents savagely attack more tolerant or pluralistic Muslim traditions just as viciously as they attack non-Muslims, if not more so. Let me guess: They accuse them of hating Islam and wanting the crusaders to win, right? Just once I’d like to see a debate between a Republican and an actual jihadist. Instead it’s always the moderates on either side who get caught in the crossfire. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1093 "2011-02-17T04:27:07Z")
> [@Ibn Warraq](#): > > You’re using the term Salafi and Wahabi as if they apply to the different groups. > > They’re the same. Wahabi is what those who oppose Salafis call them. Thanks for the clarification, I do know that Salafi and Wahhabi as currently used generally refer to the same radical-Islamist ideological movement, and I should have expressed that more clearly in my post. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1094 "2011-02-17T04:30:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What you seem to not comprehend is that there really are people who want to kill us. Really. What you seem to not comprehend is that there really are people who just so happen to be Christians who really want to kill others, yet you’re not calling for being suspicious of all Christians. It’s beyond obvious that you’re prejudiced against the religion and are immune to facts. Islam is not the problem. Killers are the problem. Well, there’s the whole problem with bigots going on vigilante sprees, too, but I include them in with the killer problem (sorry about the pun). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1095 "2011-02-17T04:43:12Z")
English. English is the true source of that dreadful degraded witticism, the pun. Ninety-nine point four percent of the really bad puns excreted on the Boards are in English. Hence, it follows that English is a depraved and barbaric language, prone to savage assaults, both physical and aesthetic. The historical record clearly reflects the bloodthirsty ambition of people who insist on following the English language, or even come into contact with it unwillingly. The fundamental drive of English towards world domination can hardly be doubted. We should therefore refuse to post any longer in English, and confine our arguments strictly to expression in mime. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1096 "2011-02-17T05:02:21Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Islam is not the problem. Killers are the problem. This is from where our disagreement stems. I _agree_ that Islam—by itself—is not the problem. Got that? I AGREE. But there _are_ groups of radical Islamists who do want to kill us. These people have a view of Islam that compels them to do us damage. To not use the information that radial Islam is a common denominator is the height of foolishness. To ignore that piece of information and view the group as “killers” that might include Charles Manson types, or gang members, or skinheads, or the unstable is amazingly unhelpful. It is what the radical Islamist want us to do. If they could argue in this thread that is precisely what they would argue. They don’t want you to focus on them, they’d prefer that we spread our attention over a broader group. You are focusing too much on the fact that a defining characteristic of the group wanting to kill us happens to be a strain of a religion. You kneejerk in not wanting to have that matter. But it does. That’s who they are. If they were a biker gang, that would matter, if they were skinheads, that would matter, the fact that they are radical Islamists matters. So it is unhelpful in the extreme to try to define the problem as “killers”. It’s debilitating. You can’t act on it. Even if you start there, the logical thing to do is ask, “what else do we know about these killers?”. And then, unless you allow yourself to be hobbled by the PC notion that you can point to religion, you wind up right where I am: the biggest threat out there trying to kill us is radical Islam. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1097 "2011-02-17T05:03:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > English. English is the true source of that dreadful degraded witticism, the pun. Ninety-nine point four percent of the really bad puns excreted on the Boards are in English. Hence, it follows that English is a depraved and barbaric language, prone to savage assaults, both physical and aesthetic. The historical record clearly reflects the bloodthirsty ambition of people who insist on following the English language, or even come into contact with it unwillingly. The fundamental drive of English towards world domination can hardly be doubted. > > We should therefore refuse to post any longer in English, and confine our arguments strictly to expression in mime. Your doing so would improve the board immediately. And immeasurably. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1098 "2011-02-17T05:18:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is from where our disagreement stems. I _agree_ that Islam—by itself—is not the problem. Got that? I AGREE. The evidence here is that you do not agree that Islam is not the problem. > [@](#): > > But there _are_ groups of radical Islamists who do want to kill us. These people have a view of Islam that compels them to do us damage. To not use the information that radial Islam is a common denominator is the height of foolishness. To ignore that piece of information and view the group as “killers” that might include Charles Manson types, or gang members, or skinheads, or the unstable is amazingly unhelpful. It is what the radical Islamist want us to do. If they could argue in this thread that is precisely what they would argue. They don’t want you to focus on them, they’d prefer that we spread our attention over a broader group. And that is not the majority of Muslims. How you can pretend that you are basing your stance on this is truly amazing. > [@](#): > > You are focusing too much on the fact that a defining characteristic of the group wanting to kill us happens to be a strain of a religion. You kneejerk in not wanting to have that matter. But it does. That’s who they are. If they were a biker gang, that would matter, if they were skinheads, that would matter, the fact that they are radical Islamists matters. So it is unhelpful in the extreme to try to define the problem as “killers”. It’s debilitating. You can’t act on it. Even if you start there, the logical thing to do is ask, “what else do we know about these killers?”. And then, unless you allow yourself to be hobbled by the PC notion that you can point to religion, you wind up right where I am: the biggest threat out there trying to kill us is radical Islam. And that is not at all what I’m saying. I’m saying is that your solution is to treat all Muslims as though they are part of the killer minority. That is what marks you a bigot. What marks you as a liar is the pathetic falsehoods you’re posting here. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1099 "2011-02-17T05:22:25Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Let me guess: They accuse them of hating Islam and wanting the crusaders to win, right? Gee, you must be psychic! [Here’s](http://theislamicstandard.wordpress.com/2010/06/07/crusaders-and-apostates-go-for-one-last-push-in-mogadishu/) what the UK-based radical _Islamic Standard_ had to say last summer about the conflict between governmental/international troops and Islamist insurgents: > [@](#): > > Crusaders and apostates go for one last push in Mogadishu > > […] So [Somali President] Sharif, who was once part of the Islamic courts movement, toppled by Ethiopia has called on his new Christian allies to lend a hand, and the Ethiopians with US and European money have trained the apostate government of Sharif a few hundred men up to their own limited standards. > > These forces of Apostasy, have along with Christian AU [African Union] soldiers have launched an assault upon the rest of the Capital which is held by the Mujahideen of [Islamist insurgent groups] Ash-Shabab and Hizbul Islam, sparking fierce clashes leading to the deaths of scores of civilians as the Christian AU forces indiscriminately shell Civilian areas before Sharif’s forces advance. […] > > […] the UN sought […] to put a secular ruler back in charge of Somalia. > > These forces of secularism were clear apostates as Allah has said in the Quran, > _and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers._ (Quran translation, 5:44) […] > > […] and the Kufir [unbelievers] are never pleased with the Muslims following the ways of Allah, and hatched plot after plot to drive down the Somali people and prevent the rise of Islam once again just as they do the world over. > _And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah’s guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper._ (Quran translation, 2:120) > > Sharif, his cowardice costing him a role of leadership within the Muslims has instead now teamed up with secularists and his old UN and Ethiopian enemies to fight against the believers so he can taste power again. > > He has even included the grave worshipping extreme Sufis in his coalition of Kufr. > > See how the enemies of Allah plot against Islam and bring their forces to [bear] against the Somali people for having the audacity to cry out the Kalimah [“the Word of Islam”] with full conviction? I especially like how even having Christian Africans in the coalition forces isn’t as bad as having “grave worshipping extreme Sufis”!! :eek: I know that many Somalis have plenty of legitimate grievances against their government, such as it is, and have little incentive to oppose the insurgents. But I don’t see how that justifies Salafi bigots in the UK spewing their hate-filled invective about “apostates” and “secularists” and “grave worshippers” and so on. When they can spare time from their important cultural missions such as [condemning Valentine’s Day](http://theislamicstandard.wordpress.com/), that is: > [@](#): > > Roses Are Red, > Violets Are Blue, > Valentines Day is What The Kuffar [unbelievers] Do, > > Shaytaan [Satan] Is The Third Present, > Between The Intimate Two! > So Remember Oh Muslim, Its HARAAM [forbidden] For You!!! Move over `Umar al-Khayyam, it’s the renaissance of Islamic love poetry. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1100 "2011-02-17T05:33:12Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The evidence here is that you do not agree that Islam is not the problem. > > And that is not the majority of Muslims. How you can pretend that you are basing your stance on this is truly amazing. > > And that is not at all what I’m saying. I’m saying is that your solution is to treat all Muslims as though they are part of the killer minority. That is what marks you a bigot. > > What marks you as a liar is the pathetic falsehoods you’re posting here. Never mind. You really are too stupid to have a discussion with. You accuse me of lying :rolleyes:. You tell me that what I take the time to write are not things I believe. :rolleyes: You insist on attributing thoughts to me that I’ve expressly and repeatedly said are things I don’t believe.:rolleyes: You are unable to digest either the words on the page nor the argument they present. You’re a small little knee-jerking man. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=54) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=56)