# More Muslim Marvelousnous **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243 "2011-02-05T03:19:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 58
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1141 "2011-02-17T23:20:36Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > … You can’t very well make broad brush characterizations of conservatives and Republicans and Tea Partiers while simultaneously insisting that conservatives not make broad brush condemnations of Muslims. … Hmm, given the number of conservatives, Republicans and Tea Partiers on the planet vs the number of Muslims (as an undifferentiated grouping\*) it would seem to be obvious that the brush size required _might_ be just a little different. Giant cauldron meet one cup Japanese tea kettle. _If you’re going to argue against “lumping” the former_\* you would be obligated to “unlump” the latter, right? \*\*You’ve clearly distinguished above there are subgroups on the right, otherwise why bother separating conservatives and Republicans and Tea Partiers if you don’t actually think they _are_ distinct subgroups? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1142 "2011-02-17T23:27:00Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I am finding it hard to have any sympathy for you in the face of such wilful foolishness. I’m hoping that you mean you’re finding it hard to have any sympathy for magellan. But, yeah, I was obviously off my game to not recognize his insanity at the outset. > [@](#): > > Of course, if you want to register firearms, that is a huge no no. Registering people’s religion, on the other hand, well, there’s no history of that turning out bad. Come to think of it, that seems to be exactly what he wants: all Muslims to be registered with the government. And then a “culling” among that population. Nah, [culling](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/culling) doesn’t have any negative connotations when applied to humans, none whatsoever. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1143 "2011-02-18T03:12:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Ai yi yi, **magellan01** , I’ve been busting my butt here trying to establish the common ground for non-bigoted opponents of radical Islam, and you’re pulling it all apart again. > > Look what you did in this very post to conflate “Islam” and “radical Islamism”. In one breath you say “Islam by itself is not the problem”, and in the next (or previous) breath you talk about “shining a spotlight on Islam” or “pointing a finger at Islam”. > > _ **If you mean that Islam by itself is not the problem, then don’t use “Islam” by itself with no qualifiers when you’re talking about what IS the problem.** _ > > If you mean to criticize and condemn radical extremist forms of Islam (which I think is a perfectly valid thing to do), then use that terminology **consistently**. For Og’s sake, _stop switching back and forth between the terms “Islam” and “radical Islam” as though they mean the same thing._ > > That is precisely what’s giving the continued impression here that you’re spewing bigotry against Islam **in general** , not just presenting a totally justifiable rant against radical Islamists. I really don’t see why you’re having such a difficult time understanding my point. The bad guys? Radical Islamists. Are all Muslims radical Islamists? No. But all radical Islamists are Muslim. And if you’re going to try to find radical Muslims where would you look? A: synagogues B: churches C. Buddhist temples D. Quaker Meeting Houses E. mosques If you’re answer is E, we agree. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1144 "2011-02-18T03:24:59Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If you’re answer is E, we agree. You really don’t care about unintended consequences, so long as you get to taste some of that sweet, sweet revenge. Someone must pay, anyone will do. I’d rather live next door to a terrorist than a patriot like you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1145 "2011-02-18T03:25:50Z")
> [@](#): > > …If you’re answer is E, we agree. As soon as they do something wrong. But that comes first. Surveillance and investigation of a particular religious subset of the citizenry stinks to high heaven. Especially if based on nothing more than belonging to a suspect religious group. And if we are so goddam chickenshit that we have to sacrifice such a principle as freedom of religion, maybe we should step aside and let somebody else take a crack at being the Americans, if we haven’t got the guts for it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1146 "2011-02-18T03:35:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > As soon as they do something wrong. But that comes first. Surveillance and investigation of a particular religious subset of the citizenry stinks to high heaven. Especially if based on nothing more than belonging to a suspect religious group. > > And if we are so goddam chickenshit that we have to sacrifice such a principle as freedom of religion, maybe we should step aside and let somebody else take a crack at being the Americans, if we haven’t got the guts for it. So which wold make the most sense to you, Mr. Mouth, A, B, C, D, E? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1147 "2011-02-18T03:40:21Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You really don’t care about unintended consequences, so long as you get to taste some of that sweet, sweet revenge. Someone must pay, anyone will do. I’d rather live next door to a terrorist than a patriot like you. I care about trying to stop people before they try to kill us. As far as your living arrangements, I, too, would prefer that you live next to a terrorist then me. If you’d like to increase the odds of that happening here in the U.S., make sure you move next door to a Muslim. … Now pay attention to what I wrote…I’d say remember your logic class, but I think I’d be asking the impossible. I did _not_ say that all Muslims are terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1148 "2011-02-18T04:04:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Let’s start here: what is this threat from the American right? Ask the survivors of the Alfred P Murrah Building. > [@magellan01](#): > > First, this is the Pit and I’ve already stated that the primary reason for the post was too rant. And yes, this latest story, when combined with countless other incidents, does point a finger at Islam. Why, because that is the set which contains the dangerous animals we refer to as radical Islamists. However, there is no need to “start” with Islam or Muslims. We can start with the radical Islamists and skip one entire wasteful (and hate engendering) step. This is for the same reason that you are probably not interested in being “wary” of everyone on the American Right, because you already know that the extremists like McVeigh and Nichols and Fortier are only an identifiable subset of the Right wing, (and, of course, you are not comfortable being wary of yourself 😉 ). The radical Islamists are quite open about who they are and we have no need to go getting all paranoid about “Islam” as though we need a whole series of successively finer filters to discover the bad guys. You simply enjoy putting your hate on the largest number of people that you can envelope in your paranoid fantasies. > [@magellan01](#): > > Now, you’re a smart guy, and a Mod, so I’m going to guess you’ll be able to do this: search this thread for the number of times I’ve used the term “radical Islam”, “radical Islamists”, or something similar. Count them up and then see if what you’ve been saying makes sense. I’m not all that interested in how often you backpedal and try to weasel out of your primary declarations. As Kimstu has noted, you switch between “Islam” and “radical Islam” with no real consistent behavior. I just quoted you making the absurd claim that numerous stories (that generally refer to backward patriarchies with abhorrent practices such as are also found in similar Christian and Hindu and Animist, (and probably Buddhist), communities), “point to Islam” when what they actually point out is that much of the world tends toward barbarous behavior. Every time the similarities between barbarous acts by Muslims are compared to barbarous acts by other groups, you pretend that there is something special about Islam even though there is no such special feature. > [@magellan01](#): > > Piffle, indeed. Notice how you had to say “in your OP”. I probably have another 75 posts in this thread. Given that this is Pit and I have already explained that my OP was primarily a rant, why would you ignore the man, many other times when I’ve said that Islam by itself is not the problem and pointed specifically to radical Islam? Why would you do that? Because I am more interested in pointing out the flaws in your true beliefs than I am in watching you cover your ass with (im)plausible deniability. When you initiate a Recreational Outrage rant in the Pit that you title “More Muslim Marvelousness” and then ignore the aspects of the story that indicate how the actions of the Muslims who perpetrated the crime were opposed by Muslims before the crime–including references to Muslim courts that noted the the proposed action was in violation of Muslim law–you are sending a clear signal that in your odd little world, only the bad actions of Muslims are worthy of note. Backpedalling with claims that you really only meant the “bad” Muslims fails. You are selective about the evil you choose to examine in the world, so you come to an incorrect conclusion about any “common denominator.” You claim it is Islam, yet we find similar behavior in many other locales and communities. The “common denominator” is not actually Islam, but the regressive societies in which the Muslims and Christians and Hindus and Animists and others live while their actions are opposed by their more progressive Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Animist, and other neighbors. By deliberately limiting the groups you examine, you place bias into your purported results. Of course it appears that “Islam” is the “common denominator” when your examination limits your survey to only Muslim communities. That is merely a tautology–and a lame one. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1149 "2011-02-18T04:45:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So which wold make the most sense to you, Mr. Mouth, A, B, C, D, E? Oh, Mags, you can be such a little bitch sometimes! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1150 "2011-02-18T05:39:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I, too, would prefer that you live next to a terrorist then me. If you’d like to increase the odds of that happening here in the U.S., make sure you move next door to a Muslim. **NOW** I think I see where the confusion is. It’s apparently not bigotry so much as simple misapprehension of statistics. **magellan01** , I’m willing to believe you when you say that you’re not bigoted against Muslims _per se_ and that you don’t believe all Muslims are terrorists. But you’ve fallen into the statistical fallacy of assuming that because a higher proportion of Muslims worldwide, as compared to Jews, Christians, Buddhists and Quakers\* worldwide, are terrorists, therefore _it must be more likely that any **given** Muslim is a terrorist than that any given Jew, Christian, Buddhist or Quaker is_. This seems superficially logical, **but it’s fallacious**. Since Muslim self-identification is only one of the correlating factors for terrorist activity, and a very weakly correlating factor at that, it’s extremely misleading to use Muslim self-identification **solely** or even **primarily** to estimate the likelihood of danger from terrorism. This is very clearly shown by the fact that your statement about how to “increase the odds of living next door to a terrorist” is actually **false**. According to [a recent report from the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security](http://homelandsecuritynewswire.com/study-shows-more-non-muslim-terrorists-us), as of 2010 there were actually **more** non-Muslim Americans than Muslim Americans involved in terrorist plots. Yup, believe it or not, according to the actual statistics, living next to a Muslim in the US nowadays would **decrease** your likelihood of living next door to a terrorist, not increase it. > [@magellan01](#): > > I care about trying to stop people before they try to kill us. Naturally. That’s a very important and valid goal. **But in order to work most effectively toward that goal, _we MUST use the most effective and intelligent ways of identifying WHICH people are likely to try to kill us._** Relying on intuitive-seeming inferences from weak correlations with extremely vague factors like religious identity doesn’t actually get us closer to that goal, although I understand how it naively seems natural to assume that it will. In fact, and somewhat counterintuitively, it actually moves us farther away from it. If we tried to apply enhanced scrutiny and avoidance to Muslims as a group, the way you’re suggesting, we’d be wasting an appalling amount of time and resources, and cutting off useful contacts and information. That category is just too broad, and its overall correlation with terrorist activity just too weak, to be a useful filter for terrorist-spotting. As **tomndebb** notes, what we have to do is skip that time-wasting step and go straight to identifying the factors that **strongly** correlate to terrorism, like **involvement with _radical_ Islam in particular**. Metaphor time: If you’re looking for a needle in a haystack, and you know that the needle’s in a section where the hay is rotten, you don’t waste your time picking through the entire haystack stalk by stalk. Instead, you figure out where the rotten section is and concentrate your search there. Especially if you don’t have a lot of time to waste. - Technically, Quakers are traditionally a sect of Christianity, and therefore Quaker meeting houses are a subset of churches, but I’m going with your categorization here just for clarity. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1151 "2011-02-18T05:44:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I really don’t see why you’re having such a difficult time understanding my point. The bad guys? Radical Islamists. Are all Muslims radical Islamists? No. But all radical Islamists are Muslim. And if you’re going to try to find radical Muslims where would you look? History teaches that whenever governments stop at nothing to root out conspirators, traitors and opponents in their midst, there soon is no shortage of conspiracies, treasons and opposition. My point is, you stomp on the Muslim community as a whole to crack down on the possibility of a remote minority of them being dangerous, you’ll very soon have a lot of dangerously pissed off Muslims on your hands. Mission accomplished ? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1152 "2011-02-18T05:50:13Z")
Here’s something else to ponder: Statistically speaking, the average Muslim American is more likely to have reported some suspected terrorist activity to the government than to be a terrorist himself or herself. When we talk about “cracking down on the terrorists”, we need to make sure we’re not actually cracking down on our most valuable allies in the fight against terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1153 "2011-02-18T05:57:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yup, believe it or not, according to the actual statistics, living next to a Muslim in the US nowadays would **decrease** your likelihood of living next door to a terrorist, not increase it. Just so I catch this before whatshisface does, you have your math wrong. A greater portion of Muslim Americans than non-Muslim Americans engaged in terrorist activities in that year —it’s just there are way, way fewer of the former than the latter. That said, 20/6,000,000 ≈ 0.0003%. You should really be worried about murderers, thieves, paedophiles, rapists, and whatever else being your neighbours. Muslims, not so much. Actually, scratch that — you shouldn’t worry about your neighbours at all. They’ll usually be fine. Really. ETA: not to mention, I don’t think terrorists usually go after their neighbours. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1154 "2011-02-18T06:00:42Z")
Only if they spell like Canadians. ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1155 "2011-02-18T06:07:27Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > ETA: not to mention, I don’t think terrorists usually go after their neighbours. Neither do serial killers. “He was such a nice man. Kept to himself, mostly…” ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1156 "2011-02-18T06:15:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Only if they spell like Canadians. Well, I have a very good reason for spelling like a Canadian. 😛 Now that I think of it, from the perspective of social desirability, it’s probably better to be worried that your neighbour is going to zap you with his/her 1920’s-style “death ray” than be worried that s/he’s a Muslim terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1157 "2011-02-18T06:47:35Z")
> [@straight man](#): > > Just so I catch this before whatshisface does, you have your math wrong. A greater portion of Muslim Americans than non-Muslim Americans engaged in terrorist activities in that year —it’s just there are way, way fewer of the former than the latter. Good point, thanks. I think I’m right about the greater likelihood of the average Muslim American being a terrorism watchdog than a terrorist, though. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1158 "2011-02-18T07:36:30Z")
Perhaps the better question might be if you are not a Muslim, are you more or less likely to be harmed by a Muslim terrorist? Of course, if you are a Muslim, you stand almost no chance of being harmed by _American_ terrorism, unless your definition of “terrorism” is expanded to include military force. Which changes the numbers. A lot. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1159 "2011-02-18T10:05:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I did _not_ say that all Muslims are terrorists. What you did say was the only way to combat terrorism is to treat all muslims _as if_ they might be terrorists; whether they actually are is unimportant to you. Kill them all, and let Allah sort them out. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243/1160 "2011-02-18T11:23:55Z")
Does this thread reboot when we reach page 30? Edit: oh sorry, apparently it reboots every page. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=57) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/more-muslim-marvelousnous/570243.md?page=59)